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Pitcher appears set while straddling the rubber


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Little League Juniors.  Pitcher straddles the rubber and then brings his hands together for multiple seconds (clearly not a momentary adjustment) as if he were coming set.  He never engages.  I believe this is a mistake in procedure (rather than intent to deceive), but still called a balk per 8.05 (g) (quoted below from 2014 OBR).

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

. . .

(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not
touching the pitcher’s plate;

 

Would you balk this? 

 

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​12-14 in general by rule, but there are no twelves on these particular teams.  The actual pitcher is 14.

 

​set, while straddling the rubber taking signs .......... you could balk it and I'd have no problem, but...you could also re-set him and say DON'T DO THAT

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I wouldn't balk it, but I wouldn't allow it.

You've answered your own question: OBR provides guidance for situations where we're not sure whether the balk rules have been violated. In those cases (only) consider the pitcher's intent: rule it a balk only if he intended his action to deceive.

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So what does he do after holding his hands together for a few seconds while off the rubber? The phrase "natural motion associated with his pitch" is the same phrase that commits him to pitch when on the rubber.  Until his non-pivot foot moves, or hands separate, or some part of his body moves towards home, I don't have a balk.  

Little League rules seem to have omitted the OBR language requiring the hands being separated before coming to the set position. So your F1 apparently can engage the rubber, 'take a sign', and pitch.  But if he deceives a runner into taking a lead and then picks him off without stepping to the base, that doesn't seem right either.

I'm not seeing rule support for either a balk or a don't-do-that so far. But I wouldn't mind being convinced otherwise.

Edited by MooseLoop
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I had something very similar to this in 12U and I just made a note of it.  F1 did it the same thing all game long.  Just off the rubber and would bring his hands together for a very long adjustment, then break hands and engage.  

Then in the 7th, SNAP THROW for a pickoff at 3rd. 

I balked it, because now I had intent. 

F1 was setting the runners up all game long.   Manager thought about objecting, but when he went to stick his finger at me there was a cookie jar attached.

 

 

 

Edited by sdix00
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I had something very similar to this in 12U and I just made a note of it.  F1 did it the same thing all game long.  Just off the rubber and would bring his hands together for a very long adjustment, then break hands and engage.  

Then in the 7th, SNAP THROW for a pickoff at 3rd. 

I balked it, because now I had intent. 

F1 was setting the runners up all game long.   Manager thought about objecting, but when he went to stick his finger at me there was a cookie jar attached.

​What rule did he violate?

Edited by Matt
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​What rule did he violate?

​I'm wondering the same. He can't simulate a pitch while off the rubber, but he sure can throw to a base — with or without stepping, since the pitching restrictions don't apply to infielders.

I guess maybe it was a retroactive balk.... :(

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Coming set while off the rubber, of course.

​He was standing holding the ball, and then he threw to a base. It's not coming set unless he's engaged or tries to pitch.

If F3 has the ball and stops moving, are you balking him, too?

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Fine.

"Prior to assuming a legal pitching position (windup or set position) it is permissible for the pitcher to momentarily adjust the ball in his glove. In order for this to be allowed, the movement must be momentary in nature. If the pitcher has his hands together long enough that, in the judgment of the umpire, it appears that he has actually come to a set position or has actually assumed the wind-up position, then should the pitcher separate his hands, a balk shall be called under Official Rule 8.05(j)."

That is the origin of momentary adjustment. You let pitchers come set off the rubber?

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​He was standing holding the ball, and then he threw to a base. It's not coming set unless he's engaged or tries to pitch.

If F3 has the ball and stops moving, are you balking him, too?

Coming set off the rubber is a motion associated with the pitch while not engaged. I let it go most of the game because there was no intent and I attributed it to stupid things 12 year olds do. . Once F1 "came set" and snap threw to 3B, I had intent to deceive and the technical ball became a real balk. Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk
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Terrific OP. This topic alone shows how belonging to UE is one of the best things an umpire can do if they want to be one of the better ones out there. Thanks basejester for giving me the opportunity to think about, and be prepared for, this possible situation before it happens to me.

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Coming set off the rubber is a motion associated with the pitch while not engaged. I let it go most of the game because there was no intent and I attributed it to stupid things 12 year olds do. . Once

F1

"came set" and snap threw to 3B, I had intent to deceive and the technical ball became a real balk. Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

​ If coming set is a motion associated with the pitch, then it's a balk every time a pitcher throws to a base or disengages   after coming set.

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I get that folks disagree with me on this one, and I am happy to reconsider. I can't find anything specifically addressing it. But I believe coming set off the rubber with intent to deceive should be penalized and is supported by 8.05g. Here is an older thread worth reviewing. http://www.umpire.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-10682.html Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

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​ If coming set is a motion associated with the pitch, then it's a balk every time a pitcher throws to a base or disengages   after coming set.

​I think there's a difference between "a motion associated with the pitch", which would include the act of stretching and coming set, and "a motion that commits him to pitch" , which would occur after the set. 

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So your interpretation is that coming set while on the rubber is not a "motion naturally associated with his pitch", but coming set while off the rubber with the intent to deceive the runner and not just to adjust the ball in the glove is a "motion naturally associated with his pitch"?

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Rather than arguing about "coming set," it might be more productive to consider the actions of F1 which seem to be simulating (emphasis intended) the actions of coming set.

I think I might have said something earlier to get F1 to stop what sounds like it was actions that simulated the natural pitching motions. If I was his coach I would also want some discussion on why my F1 was balked for something he had been doing all game because intent should not impact the application of this rule.

My .02

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​ If coming set is a motion associated with the pitch, then it's a balk every time a pitcher throws to a base or disengages   after coming set.

​That's an excellent point.

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—
(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;

. . .

(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;

 

It's exactly the same phrase, so we would be wrong to interpret it differently in (a) and (g). 

Suppose R1 and the pitcher straddling with hands together in apparent set position.  How can he extricate himself legally from this position?  After consideration, it actually seems OK to me for him to pick to first base from this position.  But if he merely separates his hands, it feels like this commits him to either pitch or throw to first.

 

 

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