Runner doesn't tag up, is he out?

[Guest Oakland Baseball]

Situation:  Player on first and second, 1 out.  Batter hits ball to deep outfield.  Player on second tags up and goes home, player on first does not tag up and makes is to third.  Defense throws the ball to second, the runner is called out.  He is between third and second trying to make it back to first.  Is the runner out at second or does the defense need to throw it to first and does the run score?  Thanks umps!

[afaber12]

To make sure I'm picturing this right, the fly ball is caught in the outfield. Runner from second (R2) correctly tags up on the fly ball, and crosses the plate at some point during the action. Runner from first (R1) either doesn't tag up at all or attempts to but leaves first early, rounds second and gets to third. I'm guessing at some point someone realizes R1 didn't tag up so he starts to head back to first via second, but before he gets back to second the defense gets the ball there and appeals for R1 to be out.

 

First question regarding R1: to make an appeal on a runner who has made a base-running error, you need to either tag the runner or the base the error was made at (obviously before the error is corrected). Given that the error in this case is that R1 left first base early, if they didn't tag R1 himself they need to appeal at first base. (I know some rule sets handle appeals differently, allowing verbal appeals in at least some cases, but I don't work with any of those so someone else would need to sort that out if it applies here.) If all the defense did was stand on second with the ball to make the appeal, then that would seem to be incorrect. Of course its possible they appealed that R1 missed second on the way to third, in which case that would be a correct appeal.

 

Does the run score? Short answer: almost certainly. Long answer: because the appeal is not for a force out (the batter's out so there can be no runners forced any more on this play) then as long as the runner crossed the plate before the appeal was made - which seems to have been the case here - the run scores.

[conbo61]

To make sure I'm picturing this right, the fly ball is caught in the outfield. Runner from second (R2) correctly tags up on the fly ball, and crosses the plate at some point during the action. Runner from first (R1) either doesn't tag up at all or attempts to but leaves first early, rounds second and gets to third. I'm guessing at some point someone realizes R1 didn't tag up so he starts to head back to first via second, but before he gets back to second the defense gets the ball there and appeals for R1 to be out.

 

First question regarding R1: to make an appeal on a runner who has made a base-running error, you need to either tag the runner or the base the error was made at (obviously before the error is corrected). Given that the error in this case is that R1 left first base early, if they didn't tag R1 himself they need to appeal at first base. (I know some rule sets handle appeals differently, allowing verbal appeals in at least some cases, but I don't work with any of those so someone else would need to sort that out if it applies here.) If all the defense did was stand on second with the ball to make the appeal, then that would seem to be incorrect. Of course its possible they appealed that R1 missed second on the way to third, in which case that would be a correct appeal.

 

Does the run score? Short answer: almost certainly. Long answer: because the appeal is not for a force out (the batter's out so there can be no runners forced any more on this play) then as long as the runner crossed the plate before the appeal was made - which seems to have been the case here - the run scores.

+1

[Guest 1omega94]

Run scores. The runner from first is only out if they tag him or the base he left which would be 1b

[Jocko]

Keep the topic going. Just a bit deeper. Since they improperly appealed the R1 @ 2B, can they still appeal to 1B?

And another scenario twist. R1 misses 2B on his way back to 1B. Can they now appeal by throwing to 2B?

[sri8527]

we are making the defense verbally commit to the appeal correct, if the appeal is made at second base and there are two runners who could possibly be appealed, if I don't have a commitment on who their appealing, I am denying the appeal. if they touch the runner at second and say he left first early then I would grant that appeal, if the runner from first is standing on second and is touched doesn't the defense have too verbally let me know why they believe he is out? am I over thinking this?

[noumpere]

Keep the topic going. Just a bit deeper. Since they improperly appealed the R1 @ 2B, can they still appeal to 1B?

And another scenario twist. R1 misses 2B on his way back to 1B. Can they now appeal by throwing to 2B?

1) Yes

2) Yes

 

we are making the defense verbally commit to the appeal correct, if the appeal is made at second base and there are two runners who could possibly be appealed, if I don't have a commitment on who their appealing, I am denying the appeal. if they touch the runner at second and say he left first early then I would grant that appeal, if the runner from first is standing on second and is touched doesn't the defense have too verbally let me know why they believe he is out? am I over thinking this?

You ar eoverthinking it.  It just needs to be "obvious".  A verbal indication can make it obvious.  But it might be obvious by the actions (why else would they be tagging the runner?  If there's a possible "play" then maybe it's not an obvious appeal -- but on a "left too soon" appeal it almost always is obvious).

 

And, if there are multiple runners, just ask, and then rule.

 

This isn't some game of "gotcha" where they need to do everything 100% right with no prompting or else they lose all rights to further appeals.

[Guest Guest]

Great replies, guys, thanks.  The runner from 1st was said to be out when they threw to 2nd and tagged the base, not the runner.  The run was not allowed as they ump deemed it be part of the same play.  They never appealed, they just tagged second before the runner got back to second on his way back to 1st.  The runner who began at 2nd scored, but the run was disallowed.  Strange play. 

[conbo61]

Great replies, guys, thanks.  The runner from 1st was said to be out when they threw to 2nd and tagged the base, not the runner.  The run was not allowed as they ump deemed it be part of the same play.  They never appealed, they just tagged second before the runner got back to second on his way back to 1st.  The runner who began at 2nd scored, but the run was disallowed.  Strange play. 

 

More like a strange call.

 

Just out of curiosity, at what level/age group did this take place?

[sri8527]

I am not convinced, I am not going to guess what they want, there are 2 possible appeals at second, the first runner not legally tagging, the second runner missing second on his way by. and I am not asking either, that's not my job. for all I know they are just trying to get an out at second on the returning runner. the defense might not even know he didn't tag up at first. if I ask, it gives the defense an advantage, when the OM comes out and asks you, "how did you know what they were appealing" you won't have a very compelling defense. just my opinion. YMMV

[Replacematt]

I am not convinced, I am not going to guess what they want, there are 2 possible appeals at second, the first runner not legally tagging, the second runner missing second on his way by. and I am not asking either, that's not my job. for all I know they are just trying to get an out at second on the returning runner. the defense might not even know he didn't tag up at first. if I ask, it gives the defense an advantage, when the OM comes out and asks you, "how did you know what they were appealing" you won't have a very compelling defense. just my opinion. YMMV

 

Then it wasn't obvious.

[Richvee]

In the spirit of giving the umpire the benefit of the doubt, perhaps the defense was appealing R2 leaving early. Oakland Baseball, were you close enough to hear if anything was said by the fielders to the umpire while they were standing on 2nd with the ball? 

[sri8527]

Great replies, guys, thanks.  The runner from 1st was said to be out when they threw to 2nd and tagged the base, not the runner.  The run was not allowed as they ump deemed it be part of the same play.  They never appealed, they just tagged second before the runner got back to second on his way back to 1st.  The runner who began at 2nd scored, but the run was disallowed.  Strange play.

with what we were given, any one have any reason as too why they DID NOT score the run, I stand by my previous posts. need a specific appeal.

[Rich Ives]

d I am not asking either, that's not my job.

 

Fox had 2B miced in a game. Jeter made an appeal. U2 asked "which runner".

 

Good enough a tutor?

[sri8527]

thanks rich, was taught and always believed we shouldn't "ask" for more information, that it was up to the defense to tell you what they were appealing. I just don't like the idea of asking, in the OP do you first ask, are you appealing the first runner or second? F4, ans. second, ok, are you appealing whether he failed to touch second on the way by, or are you appealing whether he left first early? ans. he failed to touch second? safe. F4, ok now I want too appeal that he left first early? totally different appeal at a different base so I would (should) allow both appeals? now do I have an out at first? I do understand this is really extreme but where do we draw the line? I am not trying too be being difficult, just how I see this OP. I still want to know how they took the run off the board?

[afaber12]

 

Great replies, guys, thanks.  The runner from 1st was said to be out when they threw to 2nd and tagged the base, not the runner.  The run was not allowed as they ump deemed it be part of the same play.  They never appealed, they just tagged second before the runner got back to second on his way back to 1st.  The runner who began at 2nd scored, but the run was disallowed.  Strange play.

with what we were given, any one have any reason as too why they DID NOT score the run, I stand by my previous posts. need a specific appeal.

 

My guess is probably the same as most others here, and how I would've answered a few years ago before I paid more attention to the rules. According to the poster "The run was not allowed as they ump deemed it be part of the same play." It seems the umpire was half-right: if the appeal was for a force out, then the appeal would be treated as part of the previous play(s), and no run could score. But the runner was only required to tag up, not forced to.

[Richvee]

 

d I am not asking either, that's not my job.

 

Fox had 2B miced in a game. Jeter made an appeal. U2 asked "which runner".

 

Good enough a tutor?

 

I remember that game...U2 said "which one?' Jeter said "the 1st one", U2 says "safe" Jeter immediately says "The 2nd one!!"

[noumpere]

thanks rich, was taught and always believed we shouldn't "ask" for more information, that it was up to the defense to tell you what they were appealing. I just don't like the idea of asking, in the OP do you first ask, are you appealing the first runner or second? F4, ans. second, ok, are you appealing whether he failed to touch second on the way by, or are you appealing whether he left first early? ans. he failed to touch second? safe. F4, ok now I want too appeal that he left first early? totally different appeal at a different base so I would (should) allow both appeals? now do I have an out at first? I do understand this is really extreme but where do we draw the line? I am not trying too be being difficult, just how I see this OP. I still want to know how they took the run off the board?

You could just ask "what are you appealing?"

 

But, at some levels, yes -- you might need to lead them through all the questions.

[sri8527]

i will agree to disagree and leave it at that, i made the point i wanted too make and that is how i would handle it, YMMV thanks

[Rich Ives]

 

 

d I am not asking either, that's not my job.

 

Fox had 2B miced in a game. Jeter made an appeal. U2 asked "which runner".

 

Good enough a tutor?

 

I remember that game...U2 said "which one?' Jeter said "the 1st one", U2 says "safe" Jeter immediately says "The 2nd one!!"

 

 

That was it!!