Referee Mag

[24sdad]

Just received the December issue of Referee Mag.  On page 62 the author, David Uyl (10 years MiLB, 3 years D1) discusses the correct mechanic for the base umpire on a ground ball and throw to first base:

 

"Using your eyes properly means that you see the ball enter the glove of the first baseman.  Watch that happen as you listen for the runner's foot to hit first base."  Uyl goes on to say to ensure secure possession by F3 means "keeping your eyes on the ball..."

 

Is anyone using this mechanic?  My only exposure was at Evans and this mechanic was never discussed.  They taught read the throw, watch the base for a touch by B/R and possible pulled foot by F3 while listening for the "pop" of the catch by F3.  Prior to making your out call, bring your eyes up to F3's glove to determine secure possession.  

 

I know Referee has a rep for occasionally printing questionable information, but is this a mechanic widely used?

[JaxRolo]

Priority is watching the base for the touch.

 

Timing is the key.

[Jimurray]

Priority is watching the base for the touch.

 

Timing is the key.

Fitske, ( not sure of spelling but he's a guru. In fact I thought I asked this question a while ago and it might have been you who told me to not question him) advocates this also. I haven't seen an MLB video of a play at 1B that shows this mechanic.

[JaxRolo]

The thing is if you just watch the ball how are you going to know if he is safe or out? In reality you have to take your time look at the whole play. You may see the ball out of your peripheral vision but the main focus should watching that foot hit the bag, listen for the pop of the glove then look for secure possession .

[Richvee]

So what happens when your BR decides he's gonna slide headfirst  and you're watching a ball hit a glove and waiting for a sound from the BR hitting the bag that's never going to come? 

[mstaylor]

I have never heard the mechanic taught as he says.  I have always been taught to watch the foot and listen for the catch. 

[24sdad]

So what happens when your BR decides he's gonna slide headfirst  and you're watching a ball hit a glove and waiting for a sound from the BR hitting the bag that's never going to come? 

Or B/R beats the throw but misses first base.  You are watching for F3's catch and probably only seeing B/R's upper body.  Kind of rough calling out B/R on proper appeal based on lack of sound as opposed to actually seeing the miss.

[Jimurray]

Hellow, fitske already explained how this works and nobody had a complaint.

[JaxRolo]

Hellow, fitske already explained how this works and nobody had a complaint.

What does Fitske know anyway! Nobody listens to that guy! :wave:

[Thunderheads]

how does something like that get published? It just doesn't make sense and goes against everything I've ever been taught, or heard has been taught!

[VAUmp]

It can't be correct.  I've never read that anywhere.

[grayhawk]

I can't imagine using this mechanic.  We look at the bag to see the fielder's foot in contact at the time of the catch. And then see/hear the runner's foot hitting the bag in relation to the sound of the ball hitting the glove.  If we are focused on the glove, the fielder could be 6 inches off the bag and we'd never know it.

[24sdad]

@Jimurray @Fittske24 As he is one of the more respected members here, I would love to hear Fittske24's thoughts on using this mechanic.

[conbo61]

I can't imagine using this mechanic.  We look at the bag to see the fielder's foot in contact at the time of the catch. And then see/hear the runner's foot hitting the bag in relation to the sound of the ball hitting the glove.  If we are focused on the glove, the fielder could be 6 inches off the bag and we'd never know it.

This is an excellent point. If you are looking at the glove, how can you see a pulled foot?

I WATCH the foot and LISTEN for the glove.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Texas Manny]

I believe they got it bass ackwards. Once you read the throw, and it's on target, you focus on the bag, listen for the catch. Once you have the foot/catch down, you look up to check the ball is in the glove. Then you call it. If the throw is off-line, you have to make the appropriate adjustments.

[johnnyg08]

how does something like that get published? It just doesn't make sense and goes against everything I've ever been taught, or heard has been taught!

 

That's my problem with the magazine.  Guys use this tool and expect it to be authoritative and it's not even close in many aspects.

[Jimurray]

@Jimurray @Fittske24 As he is one of the more respected members here, I would love to hear Fittske24's thoughts on using this mechanic.

This is what Fittske24 said in this thread:5-2-3 DP?????

Fittske24, on 11 Jun 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

"Can't always hear both ball in glove and foot on bag when there is a crowd that big. You might can hear one or the other but not both.... Maybe could have taken a more aggressive angle to the throw coming from the catcher. May have given him a better angle to see ball in glove then listen for the foot."

And I asked this:

"Why is this better than seeing the foot hit the bag and hear the ball hit the mitt and then verifying that the ball is in the mitt? Is this what PBUC is teaching?"

And Jocko said this:

"If Fittske says it.....WRITE IT DOWN. Don't ask why."

So the Referee author and Fittske 24 both might have been trained that way in the past.

[conbo61]

I have notices that the "thwack" of the ball hitting the glove is a higher pitch and easier to hear than the "thud" of the foot hitting the base.

Between this and a lot of errors in the quizzes, I am beginning to wonder if NASO is worth it or if I would be better served joining ABUA.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[mstaylor]

I still think NASO is worth it, the insurance is still better but ABUA is not a bad choice. 

[24sdad]

 

@Jimurray @Fittske24 As he is one of the more respected members here, I would love to hear Fittske24's thoughts on using this mechanic.

This is what Fittske24 said in this thread:5-2-3 DP?????

Fittske24, on 11 Jun 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

"Can't always hear both ball in glove and foot on bag when there is a crowd that big. You might can hear one or the other but not both.... Maybe could have taken a more aggressive angle to the throw coming from the catcher. May have given him a better angle to see ball in glove then listen for the foot."

And I asked this:

"Why is this better than seeing the foot hit the bag and hear the ball hit the mitt and then verifying that the ball is in the mitt? Is this what PBUC is teaching?"

And Jocko said this:

"If Fittske says it.....WRITE IT DOWN. Don't ask why."

So the Referee author and Fittske 24 both might have been trained that way in the past.

 

I just looked at the post and Fittske only gives the above as to why this mechanic could be used.  I am a little confused by what he is getting at.  If the crowd noise is too loud to hear both the ball popping the glove and a foot hitting the bag, you should choose the option that gives off the least amount of sound?

 

There has to be more to his reasoning and am hoping he elaborates.

[Jimurray]

@Jimurray @Fittske24 As he is one of the more respected members here, I would love to hear Fittske24's thoughts on using this mechanic.

This is what Fittske24 said in this thread:5-2-3 DP?????

Fittske24, on 11 Jun 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

"Can't always hear both ball in glove and foot on bag when there is a crowd that big. You might can hear one or the other but not both.... Maybe could have taken a more aggressive angle to the throw coming from the catcher. May have given him a better angle to see ball in glove then listen for the foot."

And I asked this:

"Why is this better than seeing the foot hit the bag and hear the ball hit the mitt and then verifying that the ball is in the mitt? Is this what PBUC is teaching?"

And Jocko said this:

"If Fittske says it.....WRITE IT DOWN. Don't ask why."

So the Referee author and Fittske 24 both might have been trained that way in the past.

I just looked at the post and Fittske only gives the above as to why this mechanic could be used.  I am a little confused by what he is getting at.  If the crowd noise is too loud to hear both the ball popping the glove and a foot hitting the bag, you should choose the option that gives off the least amount of sound?

 

There has to be more to his reasoning and am hoping he elaborates.

I think he did elaborate in a much earlier thread.

[Fittske24]

 

@Jimurray @Fittske24 As he is one of the more respected members here, I would love to hear Fittske24's thoughts on using this mechanic.

This is what Fittske24 said in this thread:5-2-3 DP?????

Fittske24, on 11 Jun 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

"Can't always hear both ball in glove and foot on bag when there is a crowd that big. You might can hear one or the other but not both.... Maybe could have taken a more aggressive angle to the throw coming from the catcher. May have given him a better angle to see ball in glove then listen for the foot."

And I asked this:

"Why is this better than seeing the foot hit the bag and hear the ball hit the mitt and then verifying that the ball is in the mitt? Is this what PBUC is teaching?"

And Jocko said this:

"If Fittske says it.....WRITE IT DOWN. Don't ask why."

So the Referee author and Fittske 24 both might have been trained that way in the past.

 

The quote from the post above deals with a slightly different play than your standard ground ball to the infield. The play referenced in the quote was a ball that was fielded by the catcher in or near the dirt circle. in the original post we were discussing the back end of a 5-2-3 DP which is most certianly ending in a banger at 1st. In that type of play it is imperative to have the proper angle and being on the glove hand side to be able to see ball in glove and see the touch of the runners foot (At the same time) on that bang-bang type play. This post also took into account the crowd size and he possibility of not being able to use sound. That’s why it is important to see the “entire picture†not just focused on one sound or the other.

 

On a routine ground ball to the infield I use a slightly different philosophy.  I get a good enough angle to see the initial release of the throw. If I read wild throw, I will prepare to adjust for pulled foot/swiped tag etc. If I read "true throw" I get set, and then I focus on the bag. I look for the runners foot to hit the bag, while still being able to see the ball enter the glove. I do listen for the ball to hit the glove as I am looking to see the runs touch. Once the ball is caught by the 1st basemen, I move my head from looking at the bag to watching the fielder to ensure he has secure position of the ball. Once I see that he has an intentional release I will make my out call.

[Jimurray]

@Jimurray @Fittske24 As he is one of the more respected members here, I would love to hear Fittske24's thoughts on using this mechanic.

This is what Fittske24 said in this thread:5-2-3 DP?????

Fittske24, on 11 Jun 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

"Can't always hear both ball in glove and foot on bag when there is a crowd that big. You might can hear one or the other but not both.... Maybe could have taken a more aggressive angle to the throw coming from the catcher. May have given him a better angle to see ball in glove then listen for the foot."

And I asked this:

"Why is this better than seeing the foot hit the bag and hear the ball hit the mitt and then verifying that the ball is in the mitt? Is this what PBUC is teaching?"

And Jocko said this:

"If Fittske says it.....WRITE IT DOWN. Don't ask why."

So the Referee author and Fittske 24 both might have been trained that way in the past.

The quote from the post above deals with a slightly different play than your standard ground ball to the infield. The play referenced in the quote was a ball that was fielded by the catcher in or near the dirt circle. in the original post we were discussing the back end of a 5-2-3 DP which is most certianly ending in a banger at 1st. In that type of play it is imperative to have the proper angle and being on the glove hand side to be able to see ball in glove and see the touch of the runners foot (At the same time) on that bang-bang type play. This post also took into account the crowd size and he possibility of not being able to use sound. That’s why it is important to see the “entire picture†not just focused on one sound or the other.

 

On a routine ground ball to the infield I use a slightly different philosophy.  I get a good enough angle to see the initial release of the throw. If I read wild throw, I will prepare to adjust for pulled foot/swiped tag etc. If I read "true throw" I get set, and then I focus on the bag. I look for the runners foot to hit the bag, while still being able to see the ball enter the glove. I do listen for the ball to hit the glove as I am looking to see the runs touch. Once the ball is caught by the 1st basemen, I move my head from looking at the bag to watching the fielder to ensure he has secure position of the ball. Once I see that he has an intentional release I will make my out call.

Thanks for clearing that up. Maybe the Referee author was addressing a similar situation.

[24sdad]

Thanks  @Fittske24, this makes more sense.  Appreciate you responding.

 

@Jimurray - don't know if you read the entire article, but that is not what I take away from it.  To me it appears that is the mechanic the author recommends for taking all plays at first.  If you get a chance, read it.  Maybe I am missing something.

[Jimurray]

Don't get the mag. That being said, the consensus seems to be right. Bassakwards. Check spelling.