Little League Catcher to Pitcher rules

[ncapp]

I have a quick question.  The green book states that you can only pitch 40 pitches and still catch.  If you pitch 41 pitches you are not allowed to catch in that game.  However,  It does not have a rule for the revese which is if a player catches first how many pitches is he allowed to throw if he comes into pitch?  I also know that the green book states that if you catch for 4 inning you cannot pitch.  Is there a rule that limits a kid from pitching to many pitches after he has caught in a game or do you just revert back to the normal pitch counts for the league age and it does not matter that he caught first. ?  It seems like there is a loophole here?  Thanks in advance. Nick

[KLAH316]

You stated all the rules.....

If you pitch 41 pitches, you can not catch.

If you catch in 4 innings, you can not pitch.

 

That is all it is.

[ncapp]

The loophole that I am wondering about is the order because If a kid catches first my understanding is I can still pitch more that 41 pitches.  But if the kid pitches first for 41 pitches he cannot catch.  

[semper_fi_72]

The loophole that I am wondering about is the order because If a kid catches first my understanding is I can still pitch more that 41 pitches.  But if the kid pitches first for 41 pitches he cannot catch.  

No loop hole.

As long as he did not catch 4 innings he can throw as many pitches as allowed for his age.

If you pitch first and throw 41 pitches you are not catching at all.

That is the rule as Williamsport has decided it will be.

 

Also, if the catcher catches one pitch in the inning he caught for a inning.

[MB_Ump]

The loophole that I am wondering about is the order because If a kid catches first my understanding is I can still pitch more that 41 pitches.  But if the kid pitches first for 41 pitches he cannot catch.

No loop hole.

As long as he did not catch 4 innings he can throw as many pitches as allowed for his age.

If you pitch first and throw 41 pitches you are not catching at all.

That is the rule as Williamsport has decided it will be.

 

Also, if the catcher catches one pitch in the inning he caught for a inning.

And they cannot go over 40 to finish the batter as the change this year for pitch counts/days rest does not apply the catcher's limit

[Guest Jake muse]

Can a cacher catch 3 innings go into pitch 37 pitches and go back to catcher for the rest of the game 3 more innings...the game went extra innings .

[grayhawk]

Can a cacher catch 3 innings go into pitch 37 pitches and go back to catcher for the rest of the game 3 more innings...the game went extra innings .

 

Yes,

 

Also, the catching rules apply to that calendar DAY, not just that game.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

Can a cacher catch 3 innings go into pitch 37 pitches and go back to catcher for the rest of the game 3 more innings...the game went extra innings .

 

Yes,

 

Also, the catching rules apply to that calendar DAY, not just that game.

 

 

 

Whether the catcher may do so under the rules and whether it is prudent for a coach who cares about the health of his players' arms to do so are two separate things.  The rule is designed to protect young arms; it is imperfectly drafted.  Good coaches will consider the spirit of the ruld and the protection it is intended to give players in making decisions about what their players do.  Coaches who care only about winning may make other decisions.

[Guest bballmom]

Can you tell me where the Catcher (4 inning) rule is in the 2013 LL green book.  I can't find it!

[Rich Ives]

Can you tell me where the Catcher (4 inning) rule is in the 2013 LL green book.  I can't find it!

 

Regulation VI(a) page 37

[Guest bballmom]

Thanks Rich!!!

[basejester]

VI (a) . . .

 

Any player, who has played the position of catcher in four (4) or more innings in a game, is not eligible to pitch on that calendar day.

 

 

Major division double header.

 

Player catches 2 innings in game 1 and 2 innings in game 2.  Can he then pitch?

[KLAH316]

Major division double header.

 

Player catches 2 innings in game 1 and 2 innings in game 2.  Can he then pitch?

Yes

[basejester]

Based on the language of the rule, I say yes, he can pitch.  The calendar day is how long the restriction lasts.  Catching 4 innings in a game is the trigger for that restriction.

 

The question is, what is the phrase "in a game" meant to tell us?  In a game as opposed to a practice?  That seems silly.  Or in a particular game?

[KLAH316]

VI (a) Page 37 is very specific about the rule:

A player who has played the position of catcher for 4 or more innings in a game, is not eligible to pitch on that calendar day.

 

I would interpret that in black and white as yes. 

[grayhawk]

They can definitely pitch in the 2nd game as long as they didn't catch more than 3 innings in the first game, or second game. For example:

Catches 3 innings in the first game

Catches 3 innings in the second game

He can now pitch up to his max in the second game

Probably not what LL intended when they wrote the rule, but it's legal nonetheless.

[Guest Tom Meadows]

I am under the impression that 4 innings means anything over the 3rd out of the 3rd inning. If a kid catches 3 and 2/3 innings, he still has not caught four innings yet?? In fact a league official called the national office last year with this very question and they confirmed this? Is that not the case? 

[Larry in TN]

I am under the impression that 4 innings means anything over the 3rd out of the 3rd inning. If a kid catches 3 and 2/3 innings, he still has not caught four innings yet?? In fact a league official called the national office last year with this very question and they confirmed this? Is that not the case? 

 

If he catches as much as a single pitch in each of four separate innings he can not pitch for the remainder of the day.  The number of outs that may have been recorded while he was catching is irrelevant.

[Rich Ives]

I am under the impression that 4 innings means anything over the 3rd out of the 3rd inning. If a kid catches 3 and 2/3 innings, he still has not caught four innings yet?? In fact a league official called the national office last year with this very question and they confirmed this? Is that not the case? 

 

The rule says "in four"  not "for four". If he caught 3 2/3 he caught in four innings. Can't pitch.

[Guest Tom Meadows]

Ok - that makes sense. Last year they called the national office to clarify and were told otherwise. We had to replay an inning at 9am on a Saturday morning because of it - lol. Ah well.

[grayhawk]

Ok - that makes sense. Last year they called the national office to clarify and were told otherwise. We had to replay an inning at 9am on a Saturday morning because of it - lol. Ah well.

 

Tell them to speak with someone other than the janitor next time.  

 

No offense to janitors - it's an old LL joke.

[Guest James B.]

So if I understand this right....A pitcher can pitch two full innings and throw say 35 pitches and still catch for the final four innings and get around the rule correct? Because if he catches the four innings first then he can't pitch, but if he pitches under the limit first and then catches the final four, he has gotten around the "letter of the law" 

[SoCal Lurker]

So if I understand this right....A pitcher can pitch two full innings and throw say 35 pitches and still catch for the final four innings and get around the rule correct? Because if he catches the four innings first then he can't pitch, but if he pitches under the limit first and then catches the final four, he has gotten around the "letter of the law" 

 

Coaches in LL are supposed to be responsible for using good judgment and protecting their players.  LL has put in a few rules to corral those who might not always use the best judgment.  Those rules don't (and probably can't) cover every possible scenario that might be wise to limit -- at some point simplicity trumps perfection.  IF you're a coach sketching this out, you should be looking not only at how the rule can be "gooten around" but how to best care for the kids in your charge.  Whether it would be prudent to permit a player to do as described will depend on the kid -- who he is, how strong he is, how hard he throws, how long those catching innings go, and what other teams he plays on.  It's supposed to be about the kids, not how managers can figure out how to work around the system to gain an advantage.

[VAUmp]

Little League rules are so stupid.

[Larry in TN]

So if I understand this right....A pitcher can pitch two full innings and throw say 35 pitches and still catch for the final four innings and get around the rule correct? Because if he catches the four innings first then he can't pitch, but if he pitches under the limit first and then catches the final four, he has gotten around the "letter of the law" 

 

He hasn't gotten around anything.  That is specifically allowed by the rules.  There are no cumulative limits which carry over from pitching to catching or vis versa.

[SoCal Lurker]

Little League rules are so stupid.

 

LL rules are designed to protect kids' arms.  Seems like an awfully good idea to me in a world that is too focussed on the here-and-now and adults caring more than the kids.  Pitch count rules more squarely address the actual issue than innings limits.  Medical guidance also suggests that there is an issue with kids pitching and catching.  http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=research&section=positionStatement  LL has tried to create rules that will provide protetion for kids, but still me manageable.  They are far from perfect.  But I think we should applauld LL for trying to find ways to do this, rather than simply callnig the rules stupid.