I've got a good one.

[guyinaredhat]

Ok here's the situation.

Bottom 7th score is 0-0 2 outs and there's a runner on 3rd. r3

Count goes to 3-0 on the batter and the 4 th pitch is a wild pitch and the runner on 3rd scores, HT goes crazy and the batter / runner started halfway up the line the line and then joins his teammates as the celebrate the win . Normally I'd be getting the hell out of dodge, but it was a tournament and we needed to take care of the game cards .

My question is what if the away team appeals the b/r abandoned the base path and wanted a 3 rd out and no run. ??

Whats the proper ruling in this situation?

[carolinablue]

Alright, what would they be appealing ? There is no missed base just one that wasn't reached. It's a base on balls so the B/R is not liable to be put out. Abandonment is only in order after the runner has reached 1B correct ? Don't take this as the gospel but I say game over. OK. let me have it.

[renegadewolf]

Alright, what would they be appealing ? There is no missed base just one that wasn't reached. It's a base on balls so the B/R is not liable to be put out. Abandonment is only in order after the runner has reached 1B correct ? Don't take this as the gospel but I say game over. OK. let me have it.

This should cover the appeal/protest quite nicely

OBR

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when—

(a) Four “balls†have been called by the umpire;

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game.

[noumpere]

Alright, what would they be appealing ? There is no missed base just one that wasn't reached. It's a base on balls so the B/R is not liable to be put out. Abandonment is only in order after the runner has reached 1B correct ? Don't take this as the gospel but I say game over. OK. let me have it.

You could read the rule on how a run scores and who needs to advance in a game ending situation (and I say that not to be mean but to help).

[umpire_scott]

Alright, what would they be appealing ? There is no missed base just one that wasn't reached. It's a base on balls so the B/R is not liable to be put out. Abandonment is only in order after the runner has reached 1B correct ? Don't take this as the gospel but I say game over. OK. let me have it.

This should cover the appeal/protest quite nicely

OBR

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when—

(a) Four “balls†have been called by the umpire;

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game.

Does this really apply though in this situation? There was only a runner on 3rd, who was not forced to advance. But even if the BR is put out for abandoning his right to first base, does this fall under a force out? If not then as long as the runner scores first, does it matter what the BR does?

[MPLSMatt]

This is all based on FED.

I've got an out here and no run, if appealed before you leave the field. Definition of a run says that a run cannot score if the final out is made by the BR before he reaches first base. If you don't rule an out here, what do you have for the BR? His status is important to the play. It's fairl specifically addressed in the FED Case Book:

9.1.1 SITUATION E

With two outs, R1 on third base and R2 on first base, B5 receives a fourth ball. An overthrow at third permits R1 to reach home. In advancing (a) R2 fails to touch second or (B) B5 goes to second base but fails to touch first base.

RULING: Upon appeal, the umpire will rule R2 out for failing to touch second base in (a) and B5 out for failing to touch first base in (B). The run by R1 will not count in either case. (8-2 Penalty)

[grayhawk]

This is all based on FED.

I've got an out here and no run, if appealed before you leave the field. Definition of a run says that a run cannot score if the final out is made by the BR before he reaches first base. If you don't rule an out here, what do you have for the BR? His status is important to the play. It's fairl specifically addressed in the FED Case Book:

9.1.1 SITUATION E

With two outs, R1 on third base and R2 on first base, B5 receives a fourth ball. An overthrow at third permits R1 to reach home. In advancing (a) R2 fails to touch second or ( B) B5 goes to second base but fails to touch first base.

RULING: Upon appeal, the umpire will rule R2 out for failing to touch second base in (a) and B5 out for failing to touch first base in ( B). The run by R1 will not count in either case. (8-2 Penalty)

Matt, I don't think that case play applies because those are missed base appeals. In the OP, the BR did not advance to first. I know J/R created something called "desertion" for a BR that fails to advance to first base, but it's not supported by any rules or official interpretations that I know of. As carolina said, abandonment only applies after a runner has reached first base. I agree with him that the game is over. A runner not reaching a base is not something that can be appealed.

[MPLSMatt]

Grayhawk, you are totally right. In my haste I read it as "B5 fails to touch first base" and stopped there (but missed that he goes to second). Totally different situation.

Still, I would think that we need BR to touch first for the run to score. Can anyone site anything to the contrary. I tried to look under game ending procedures (as mentioned) and I didn't find an analogis situation (at least not in the FED books).

[Jocko]

I would think there's a rule to apply, but as of yet haven't found it. Lacking specifics, I say game over. TECHNICALLY the BR needs to touch 1b, but he's not innn jeopardy, so the spirit and intent of the rule seem to support no call. I'm curious what Rich Ives has to say. he's got the rules on lock. Kinda freakishly, but he can quote em.

[Texarkana]

I could be wrong but I say the run scores. You have a time play here and the run scored before anything else happened. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Alright, what would they be appealing ? There is no missed base just one that wasn't reached. It's a base on balls so the B/R is not liable to be put out. Abandonment is only in order after the runner has reached 1B correct ? Don't take this as the gospel but I say game over. OK. let me have it.

This should cover the appeal/protest quite nicely

OBR

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when—

(a) Four “balls†have been called by the umpire;

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game.

does this fall under a force out? ?

no such thing as a force out at 1st...

BR is not forced to go anywhere..

[Haid D' Salaami]

To answer the question... this is an abandonment play, since the BR had not reached 1st, the run would not score...in the OBR rule book this would be under the rule of 7.12 I think this will help.

[UmpJM]

H D'S

7.12 is not pertinent to the sitch because the runner who failed to advance to his next base was a following runner, not a preceding runner.

The pertinent rule cite is the 4.09 ( b ) Penalty:

( b ) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the

last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other

play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall

not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has

touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

...

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a

reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and

order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to

and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player,

and order the game resumed. ...

JM

[SoCal Lurker]

H D'S

7.12 is not pertinent to the sitch because the runner who failed to advance to his next base was a following runner, not a preceding runner.

The pertinent rule cite is the 4.09 ( b ) Penalty:

( b ) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the

last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other

play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall

not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has

touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

...

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a

reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and

order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to

and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player,

and order the game resumed. ...

JM

The language here is interesting to me in that it doesn't say "doesn't" or "fails to," but rather "refuses." to touch first base. "Refuses" implies failing to do so after being told -- so does the U need to say, "hey, you need to go touch first"?

[johnnyg08]

so does the U need to say, "hey, you need to go touch first"?

Maybe if the kids are not shaving age. Otherwise, no way.

[Jocko]

H D'S

7.12 is not pertinent to the sitch because the runner who failed to advance to his next base was a following runner, not a preceding runner.

The pertinent rule cite is the 4.09 ( b ) Penalty:

( b ) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the

last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other

play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall

not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has

touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

...

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a

reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and

order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to

and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player,

and order the game resumed. ...

JM

The language here is interesting to me in that it doesn't say "doesn't" or "fails to," but rather "refuses." to touch first base. "Refuses" implies failing to do so after being told -- so does the U need to say, "hey, you need to go touch first"?

I wouldn't think it's my job, but I remember reading about MLB ump who made BR come out of the clubhouse and touch home after a walk-off dinger. Noone protested, but he wanted it done. The dude came out in street clothes and stepped on the dish.

Considering that, I think maybe we should tell BR to touch 1b.

[Jocko]

H D'S

7.12 is not pertinent to the sitch because the runner who failed to advance to his next base was a following runner, not a preceding runner.

The pertinent rule cite is the 4.09 ( b ) Penalty:

( b ) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the

last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other

play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall

not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has

touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

...

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a

reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and

order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to

and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player,

and order the game resumed. ...

JM

is there a Fed equivelant?

[UmpJM]

The FED equivalent is 9-1-1 Note 2.

FED requires ALL forced runners and the BR to reach their advance base (vs. just the BR and R3 in OBR).

JM

[Rich Ives]

so does the U need to say, "hey, you need to go touch first"?

Maybe if the kids are not shaving age. Otherwise, no way.

So how can he refuse if there's no instruction for him to refuse?

[grayhawk]

H D'S

7.12 is not pertinent to the sitch because the runner who failed to advance to his next base was a following runner, not a preceding runner.

The pertinent rule cite is the 4.09 ( b ) Penalty:

( b ) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the

last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other

play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall

not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has

touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

...

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a

reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and

order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to

and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player,

and order the game resumed. ...

JM

This doesn't happen very often, but I disagree with JM. Read your rule cite very carefully. In the OP, the winning run did not score as a result of a bases loaded walk, hit batter or any other bases loaded play where R3 was forced home. In the OP, the winning run scored as a result of a wild pitch (and there was only R3, not bases loaded). There was a base on balls awarded on the same play, but that's not why the run scored.

I believe this is a play that is simply not covered under the rules. Abandonment? No, that only applies AFTER a runner reaches first. Missed base? No, you cannot appeal a base that was never reached. Desertion? Only if you ask J/R which is not an official interpretation. What we have here is a game over, thanks for coming, and good night.

[johnnyg08]

so does the U need to say, "hey, you need to go touch first"?

Maybe if the kids are not shaving age. Otherwise, no way.

So how can he refuse if there's no instruction for him to refuse?

not sure, I would never do it.

[Rich Ives]

Spending a lot of time debating a bases-loaded rule on a play that only had an R3. :2cents:

[johnnyg08]

Spending a lot of time debating a bases-loaded rule on a play that only had an R3.

That's what I thought too.

[UmpJM]

grayhawk,

While I will certainly stipulate that the OP was not a "bases loaded" sitch and that my cite specifically deals with a sitch where the bases ARE loaded, to me the important point is that the 4.09( b ) Penalty firmly establishes the principle that the umpire is to call out a BR who fails to touch 1B after being awarded a base on balls.

This interp is reinforced by the text of OBR 6.08(a) as well as the JEA discussion of 6.08(a):

Professional Interpretation: Though the batter is awarded first base without liability to be put out, he does incur

responsibilities: (1) He must advance to and touch the awarded base or become liable to be declared out...

and the J/R "desertion" interpretation.

JM

[grayhawk]

grayhawk,

While I will certainly stipulate that the OP was not a "bases loaded" sitch and that my cite specifically deals with a sitch where the bases ARE loaded, to me the important point is that the 4.09( b ) Penalty firmly establishes the principle that the umpire is to call out a BR who fails to touch 1B after being awarded a base on balls.

This interp is reinforced by the text of OBR 6.08(a) as well as the JEA discussion of 6.08(a):

Professional Interpretation: Though the batter is awarded first base without liability to be put out, he does incur

responsibilities: (1) He must advance to and touch the awarded base or become liable to be declared out...

and the J/R "desertion" interpretation.

JM

JM, that entire rule cite, including the penalty, involved a bases loaded situation. Not relevant to the OP, in my opinion. J/R is not official and could not be used in a protest situation, so it might as well not exist. The fact that they had to invent desertion speaks volumes, to me, that you shouldn't call BR out here and wipe the run. Even 6.08 talks about how the BR must touch first to force the other runners.