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Touch up on a foul ball


Guest Eric Witthohn
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Guest Eric Witthohn

I had a situation last night that luckily the coach did not question. My partner and I struggled to come up with a correct answer. I know that on a foul ball there is no rule that states the runners must touch up at their previous bases even though everyone thinks that there is.

Here is the situation we had:

Runner on 1st (R1) and third (R3) one out. As the pitcher come set at the mound R1 takes off to second and reaches second bases before the pitcher delivers the pitch. The pitch is then fouled off. The runner (R1) remained at second. My question was is the pitchers coach asked to return the runner back to first what should we have done? Time of pitch R1 had become R2 or is he still R1 from when pitcher was set?

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TOP is when F1 makes any move that commits him to deliver a pitch. Not when he comes set. Not when ball leaves his hand. If he got to 2b while F1 was still set, he gets 2b. If not, he returns to 1b

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I know that on a foul ball there is no rule that states the runners must touch up at their previous bases even though everyone thinks that there is.

Rule 5.09(e): The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—

A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. The umpire-in-chief shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

Now, the custom is to allow the ball to be put back in play if the runners are close, but we could require them to retouch.

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I know that on a foul ball there is no rule that states the runners must touch up at their previous bases even though everyone thinks that there is.

Rule 5.09(e): The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—

A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. The umpire-in-chief shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

Now, the custom is to allow the ball to be put back in play if the runners are close, but we could require them to retouch.

he asked the question kinda left handedly. I don't think "retouch" really had anything to do with what he was really asking. I could be wrong, but seems he's muddying the water with 2 different rules.
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I know that wasn't his primary question, but I couldn't let such a blatant fallacy go. Also, I don't want newbies thinkin' it's true just 'cause they saw it on an umpire web-site.

:cheers: good call
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I know that on a foul ball there is no rule that states the runners must touch up at their previous bases even though everyone thinks that there is.

Everyone think there is a rule because they are right. There is a rule that states that.

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I know that on a foul ball there is no rule that states the runners must touch up at their previous bases even though everyone thinks that there is.

Everyone think there is a rule because they are right. There is a rule that states that.

True but most or at least too many believe it then becomes an appeal play or an automatic out or a do over and none of that is true. If the ball is put in play before the runners retouch then the ball is in play just as if they had retouched and nothing else need be done about it.

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I know that on a foul ball there is no rule that states the runners must touch up at their previous bases even though everyone thinks that there is.

Everyone think there is a rule because they are right. There is a rule that states that.

True but most or at least too many believe it then becomes an appeal play or an automatic out or a do over and none of that is true. If the ball is put in play before the runners retouch then the ball is in play just as if they had retouched and nothing else need be done about it.

Correct. It's OUR job to be sure runners are where they're supposed to be. I generally look for them to be in the vicinity of the bag, theirr normal leadoff. If I call play and he's 6" from the next bag, he's legally aquired it. Not gonna happen, just an example.
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I know that on a foul ball there is no rule that states the runners must touch up at their previous bases even though everyone thinks that there is.

Everyone think there is a rule because they are right. There is a rule that states that.

The rule says (posted above) that the ball is not to be put in play until the runners retouch. If the UIC does put the ball in play it's all on him, not the runners.

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Guest umpjeff

When I'm in the field I tell watch all runners and tell them to re-touch after foul balls. I also watch when I'm holding the stick. If I don't see them re-touch, I tell them to before I put the ball in play.

I thought I was the only umpire in the world that did this.

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Warren,

Yes - someone (I don't recall who) posted the history of the game that led to that particular rule. I don't recall the player or team, but essentially it was because there was a specific player that was known for standing next to his next base while time was out after a Foul was called, and as soon as the ball was put back in play, he would just touch that base, therefore legally acquiring it.

Smart player!

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Warren,

Yes - someone (I don't recall who) posted the history of the game that led to that particular rule. I don't recall the player or team, but essentially it was because there was a specific player that was known for standing next to his next base while time was out after a Foul was called, and as soon as the ball was put back in play, he would just touch that base, therefore legally acquiring it.

Smart player!

People claim Don Hoak did it. I'm in the "urban legend" camp on this one.

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Warren,

Yes - someone (I don't recall who) posted the history of the game that led to that particular rule. I don't recall the player or team, but essentially it was because there was a specific player that was known for standing next to his next base while time was out after a Foul was called, and as soon as the ball was put back in play, he would just touch that base, therefore legally acquiring it.

Smart player!

People claim Don Hoak did it. I'm in the "urban legend" camp on this one.

Rich,

Me too.

Here is what Evans has to say:

Historical Notes: The game was originally designed to be played at a faster pace than the game we know today.

Following a dead ball, umpires traditionally put balls into play sooner than they do today; and a runner who failed

to return to his base before being tagged after a foul ball was liable to be put out. In 1887, runners were relieved

of the responsibility of running while returning as long as they did not "unnecessarily delay the game."

JM

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I had a friend when I was younger who coached and always tried to think of weird things he could do within the rules. Once he came up with this one (not sure if he ever did it in a game). Let's say you have a pitching change with R1 and R3. R1 comes over to talk to the 3rd base coach as they often do and when the reliever is done warming up, R1 goes and stands on 2nd. Now, if you put the ball in play before anyone noticed, is he now legally R2? Would you eject someone for unsportsmanlike?

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Variations on that play have been discussed here and at umpire meetings for a long time. Most will find some way to eject the coach and maybe the runners. HS has some interp (similar to your play but where the runners switch positions) that gets two outs and an ejection.

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Yes, don't go looking for the dirty end of the stick on that one.

close enough is good enough.

@ SDS on umpire.org years ago did you put something with the origins of the retouch after a foul ball??

I can't remember if I did, but JM has got it here. I looked over there, but they deleted all the posts from before 2009. I think it is also to keep people from cheating, like Guest Nick speaks of above. As long as they are "close enough," I turn around and forget about them.
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I had a friend when I was younger who coached and always tried to think of weird things he could do within the rules. Once he came up with this one (not sure if he ever did it in a game). Let's say you have a pitching change with R1 and R3. R1 comes over to talk to the 3rd base coach as they often do and when the reliever is done warming up, R1 goes and stands on 2nd. Now, if you put the ball in play before anyone noticed, is he now legally R2? Would you eject someone for unsportsmanlike?

You can't run bases when the ball is dead (except on an award so he has to go back.

If it's youth ball eject the coach.

If they're shaving age eject the coach and the player (you'll need a sub on 1B).

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