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Everything posted by beerguy55

  1. Runner on third (R3) scores - once she touches home plate legally (ie. she didn't miss any bases, didn't leave early on a fly ball, didn't commit any infractions subject to appeal) she gets the run and it can't be undone. Some very smart people recently confirmed for me that this is true in baseball and I have since learned it is also true in fast pitch. Runner on first (R1) stays at second base. Batter-runner (BR) - She is out and could be ruled out for a few possible different reasons. One - It might be ruled the force was put back on once she returned to the plate - I know this can happen at second and third, but not sure how it's handled at first. Two - it could be ruled she didn't return to the base immediately after over-running it. Or three - In softball only, depending on the level, the BR could be called out for abandonment the moment she returned to her bat, or towards home plate, whether she had reached first base or not. In NCAA this is an out. In high school the umpire may use judgment to call it abandonment. In ASA she's not out until she gets to the bench. I'm not sure how it is handled in Little League. Edit: For R1, it would also depend on how she returned to first. If she touched second, went past second, and then retreated to first base without retouching second, ran all the way back to first, and then ran back to second she could also be put out if the defense appeals that she missed second base. If she just touched second and retreated to first, and then advanced back to second she's OK. In summary, I believe the correct ruling/result is batter out, runner on second, one run scored.
  2. How is this handled as it unfolds? R3 leaves early, R2 doesn't. Both cross the plate. R3 returns to third base. Defense throws the ball in, sees R3 standing on third, throws the ball back to the pitcher. I assume you instruct R3 to return to the dugout, and then instruct the score keeper that both runs score? Then if DT makes proper appeal you call R3 out and instruct score keeper to remove that run (or both runs if it's the third out)? If DT says "but he missed third base, and then went back, why does he get to score now?" in FED does that constitute a legal appeal? In OBR is your response something like "a retired or legally scored runner can't return to third base", or some other kind of response that doesn't coach them on how to complete the appeal?
  3. As they say, hit a round ball with a round bat, squarely - hardest thing to do in all of sports. Not to mention the complex calculus equations an outfielder computes on the fly while shagging a fly ball. It's pretty remarkable what we can do, and how little margin for error there is in it.
  4. Interesting. My assumption is that baseball and softball would be the same in this regard. But I'm curious, for OBR, is there a rule or case play you can point me towards? I also want to make sure I'm understanding. Let's say R2 advances to third on a single, touches the base, the play is still live, but he for some reason thinks it was a foul ball, so he trots back to second base, and then stays there when the ball comes into the infield, and hides his head in shame and embarrassment...he would have to stay at second base - correct? BUT, what you're saying is if R3 advances home on a single, touches the base, the play is still live, but he for some reason thinks it was a foul ball, so he trots back to third base, and then stays there when the ball comes into the infield he would actually be awarded the run? You may think I'm odd with these stupid situations, but I have a love for the academic side of the game, and this is my attempt to reverse engineer it.
  5. So, taking any notion of other base runners out of the equation to avoid any possible confusion/distraction, if I legally touch all four bases on an inside the park hit, and then after touching home I get it in my head that I missed third base, I retouch home (or if I never took my foot off home plate, just turn around), run back to third base, and then stay there because the ball has come back into the infield, what happens? Do you as the umpire tell me my run has scored, go to the dugout...or have I just turned my home run into a triple? My assumption has always been that you could undo touching any base, even home, and return to any previous base, as long as the "travesty of the game" doesn't apply, and as long as you don't go beyond the base you occupied at TOP, even if you weren't correcting a mistake (ie. you simply believed you were correcting a mistake, or any other scenario causing you to believe you need to go back to your previous base).
  6. Depends if this is softball or not. The fast pitch rule pertains to the pitcher's circle, and the pitcher having possession of the ball in the circle. Once the pitcher holds the ball in the circle and is not making any kind of act towards the runner the runner must make an immediate decision to which direction to run, and then may not stop or change direction after that. Unless the pitcher makes an act against the runner (and not just a head fake). If the runner is in flight when the pitcher gets the ball the runner may stop once, and then immediately decide what to do. The rule is to prevent the inevitable dicking around kids get into with creating rundowns, and generally wasting time, with the runner continuing head faking and not returning to his base. Especially when the bases are only 60 feet apart, which is the case even in men's fast pitch. I could see this enforced in some community baseball associations too.
  7. Well the run doesn't go on the board until the play is over - the score keepers aren't that fast. What if you were to ask "Can a runner unacquire home base?" I'm suspecting your interpreter is playing on some semantics. I think maven was being illustrative, I think your interpreter is being literal. Or he's just plain wrong. Technically speaking, I'm not sure if the run is counted immediately, or not until the runner enters the dugout, or has clearly shown he is no longer interested in returning to any bases, or even not until the play is over - I don't know if there's a differentiation between "acquiring home base" and "scoring" in the practical element of game management. I ask this because in OBR, in the score keeping section, it says a home run is when "the batter touches all four bases AND scores" (emphasis mine) This suggests to me there is a differentiation between touching home base and scoring. It's a subtle difference in interpretation, but it could explain why he could believe an offense can't "unscore" a run. If a run doesn't count until the runner leaves the field, or until the play is over, then it can't be unscored, because the runner can no longer try to correct any errors at that point. There are certainly times when touching home plate doesn't immediately score a run - eg. with two out, the run doesn't score until BR reaches first base safely If the act of touching home base is an immediate "score/run" then I think that the statement that an offense "can't unscore a run" is inherently wrong. You can indeed run back to third base, after touching home, if you realize you left early or missed it. And that would unscore the run.
  8. I imagine more like R1 veers his path to divert F4 enough that BR beats F4 to the bag, but still gives R1 enough time to get to second. F3 is either gonna still try to throw to first, and be late, or he's going to see F4 is late, double clutch, and then be too late to throw to second. Or, as I've seen far too many times to count, F3 is just going to sail the ball into right field because he didn't actually check first to see if F4 had arrived.
  9. haha - I promise you, he said those exact words. Imagine Strother Martin in Cool Hand Luke..."what we have here is a...classic case of obstruction" - that was this guy. Even the two base coaches were shaking their heads, couldn't believe the gift they just received.
  10. Happened in a game I was watching. R1 with two out, ground ball hit to F4 - ball is fielded about 20 feet to the right of 2B, right on the path between first and second - runner is less than ten feet from F4. This is 12/13 yo level. F4 turns away from the runner, because that's what they do at that age. And runs to second base to touch the bag. So for that 20 feet you have F4 running to second not even looking at the runner, and R1 following by about three feet - R1 is faster than F4 and slows up rather than try to go around F4, avoid the tag and get to the base. Ump calls OBS. Coach argues that F4 had the ball, simply chose to tag the base rather than the runner. Umpire called it "a classic case of obstruction". Who's right?
  11. That's the point, as illustrated in the rest of the post that follows that statement. Defense isn't going to throw to F6 at second (most times), they're gonna throw to first...or, at the very least, gonna want to throw to first, and sometimes they'll throw the ball before even noticing that F4 got held up.
  12. With two outs it's almost automatic, especially at the lower levels, to just throw to first - R1 could be enticed to take the risk and hinder F4 covering first knowing full well that F1/F2/F3 are going to throw to first base 95% of the time, without even looking to second....this usually entails just throwing to first expecting F4 to be there and the ball sailing into right field...or cocking to throw, realizing F4 isn't there, double clutch and then being too late to throw to F6.
  13. As per a few responses above, R1 can be called for INT in this scenario. MC = Malicious Contact/Conduct
  14. And nevertheless 19 umps out of 20 will call BI if the catcher hits him on the follow through.
  15. Unless you can show intent on the runner's part???
  16. Letter of the rule vs spirit of the rule. As a coach I could work with an ump like you all day long.
  17. And so the catcher is better off to not throw the ball at all and make a very visible display that he didn't do so because the batter was there. Or worse, throw the ball into the batter, or step forward and accidentally on purpose contact the batter. Don't get me wrong - the ump is usually in a tough spot here. The rules as they are written, and the subjective standards by which an umpire measures hindrance or success, encourage and incentivize bad behavior. The catcher with integrity who makes the attempt likely doesn't get the BI call because there's nothing the ump can really see or discern in real time that shows he was hindered. The catcher who "flops" gets the call almost every time. And this is why we have floppers, not just in soccer - because they have learned, from the time they were children, and then reinforced all the way up into their professional/adult lives, that it's the only way to make 100% sure an official sees the infraction that occurred. The catcher got off a good clean throw...but perhaps he would have got of a better cleaner throw. Give the benefit of the doubt to the defense.
  18. Four years ago we went into the gold medal game of a tournament but got rained out. Tournament rules say the winner is to be decided by coin flip. We lost. The other team's parents cheered. And then the team manager proceed to post the team's "victory" announcement and photos to their Facebook page. It's not about class, it's about vicarious living - and some people will take a W any way they can, because they've never experienced it...or they crave it. In a Corporate community softball tournament - you know, one of those things meant to encourage sportsmanship and collaboration and community and getting to know each other - gold medal game, HT winning by a considerable margin with two out in the last inning. Mixed slow pitch, three females required, one girl takes a bad hop and breaks her nose, has to leave the game. HT has no more girls on the bench, not allowed to finish with eight players, but does have a female in the stands who works for the company. She comes in, plays the final out (a pop fly that does not go anywhere near her). And the losing team PROTESTS the game on the grounds of playing with an ineligible player, as she didn't sign in pre-game. Tournament director has no real choice but to honor the protest and forfeits the other team. "Winning" team gleefully accepts their trophy. Cheering, hootin' and hollerin' and boisterous celebration. Some people love to win...others need to win. Would I accept a trophy won by forfeit - only if it was shown that the team, including the kids, were cheating...and probably still holding my nose at the same time. It would always seem tainted to me and my players.
  19. My advice would be to tell the truth and not waste people's time here.
  20. As a coach, I look at this pragmatically. There are a lot of things that can happen in the course of the game that cause a defense to throw the ball when they didn't really need to...most of the time it's their own fault, and once in a while the umpire makes an error. As your two scenarios show, these kind of things will even out in the long run. This is the "luck" part of the game and I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't think your scenario is avoidable short of extreme budget changes that allow four man crews at every game at every level....there's even footage of a MLB 1B ump tanking this call with the first baseman a full step off the base - angles suck. I wouldn't go to PU in real time because it's putting him on the spot, especially if he's watching something else in the play. My only thinking would be, if the ball beats the runner, and you can't see the first baseman's foot, call him out. Does it suck for the runner when he's safe...yup. I was once called out on a force at second base by PU (only ump) where F6 caught the ball six feet in front of the base. It happens. If we didn't want it to happen we'd pony up more money for more umpires.
  21. I think speculation is fine in the context of this discussion, as opposed to sitting in the middle of a game determining if we have enough to overturn a call. Most of us can infer that the BR is going to run as close to a straight line as he possibly can (in trying to run through first base, as opposed to proceeding to second) once he has established his path. In fact, it's a lesson to how important positioning is for a call - if this angle was the only angle I saw, and I only had one chance to make the call in real time with no review, and there were no other umps present to give me a frame of reference, I think I'd call RLI with the information at hand. And there's a pretty good chance it could be the incorrect call. There's a point at 6:45 when the camera cuts back where you can see a cloud of chalk, making it look like he caught the baseline (or close enough to disturb it) on at least one of his steps. Your football analogy is perfect - if this replay was used to confirm/overturn an OB call there isn't enough there to say one way or the other. No matter what the ump's call was, the call would "stand" it would not be "confirmed" nor "overturned/reversed". And then if we're going by the letter of the law...does it matter where he is touching the ground, or does he only need a portion of his body (eg. shoulders, arms) inside the running lane?
  22. Mr

    Yeah - I'll put in a pitcher who hasn't been getting a lot of game time, but wouldn't put one in who wasn't ready for it. To your second - yes, umpires would be at would the facility - so I've seen facility personnel intervene as well, especially in cases where the umpires have left. That is, the facility has been rented by the league, for the purpose of a scheduled game. If the game is over (or cancelled), then the facility staff, if present, will make you leave, for the same liability reasons an umpire would face. Doesn't matter if you technically have the facility from have the facility for the duration of the game.
  23. Mr

    I've been on both ends of blowouts. As a coach, I take this as an opportunity to try things out, where mistakes aren't nearly so critical or magnified. These kids get limited game time through the course of a season, and however much practice time we all get, there's no experience like game experience. Give the kids some opportunities to take some risks. One example is some kids I've coached were afraid to dive...and it's not because they're afraid to get hurt, but they're afraid to miss and make things worse, or look like a fool. Convince a kid to just go out an have fun ("Hey kids, we're down 12 runs...not like you can make it worse") they might learn some things about themselves, and then in the games where it does matter the kid knows what he's capable of.
  24. I agree. If they're watching what they're supposed to be watching they should only be noticing the really really egregious infractions...and they'll even miss a lot of those. It's gotta be the hardest call in ball to make.
  25. Keep in mind that there are six inches of space between the outside line of the batter's box and the plate - not difficult to have your foot completely outside the batter's box and not be "behind" the plate, especially in a bunting position with your feet pointing at the pitcher. In your frame the ball has actually hit the ground just in front of the plate, and is on its way up - the dirt on the right half of the plate is a result of that. Doesn't really matter on the timing - his foot was in that same space well before and after he made contact with the ball. Also - later in the video, at 2:34/2:35, you get a better view. He might still be touching a piece of the box area, but it's close.