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Everything posted by VolUmp

  1. What's the difference between abandoning because you think you're out, and abandoning because you think the half-inning is over? The letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule are the same. Unless there is a comment in the MLBUM or in the comments in OBR (which there is not, as I have looked), I believe what I received back from the rules moderator at
  2. This is agreeable at all age levels if the coach cops any sort of attitude. One year we were told to use the first threat at the HS level, "Coach ... is #17 coming out of the game on your terms or mine?" to goad a coach into pulling a kid in lieu of an ejection, and someone from FED evidently got all over our State Director for it, because we've been told ever since to NEVER do that. Afterthought: I rang up a 17-year-old in a crucial situation on Saturday with two outs and men on 2nd and 3rd, and he evidently directed some comment at me, because I heard his young HC yell, "Get in the dugout! Don't you EVER say anything to him! You could have controlled that!" Even if I did hear what the kid said, that's where I'm willing to turn a deaf ear ... when the coach takes immediate control. When my son played at age 15, his 25-year-old coach pulled a teammate out of the game with two strikes on him for showing up the ump on the second called strike. THAT was awesome. His dad came up to me and asked, "As a coach, isn't that where you call time out and have a little tough love talk with him instead of humiliating him like that?" All I could say was, "Maybe he needed to be humiliated."
  3. Well, since I cite my rules, you should know where I get them from. Not if he leaves the base path and crosses the infield. You are misusing two terms that are not identical: Base Path does not always = Base Line.
  4. Any runner is out when: Rule 5.09(b) (2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base. Did he cross the infield to try to trick the defense? No ... he crossed the infield because he, like nearly everyone, thought there were three outs ... so he was obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base. If Evans or anyone else wants to say the interp is that R3 cannot be out until he's in the dugout, I'd like to see that in writing and accepted by MLB — in the Rulebook Comments. Otherwise, quite calling a yellow balloon green. I understand you only have a baseline (basepath) at play when a tag is evident, but this is a clear situation where the runner abandoned. Not for a second or two and then gets yelled at by his coach ... but as long as it took him to get in front of the mound. I've already posted this on and received the answer using the OP verbatim.
  5. There is a Softball SubForum for your post.
  6. Pujols was ejected for precisely the same thing 6-7 years ago before he even left the box. He ran all the way to 1B when his 1BC had to break the news.
  7. No. Talk to the coach first.
  8. Which is a little tricky when HS teams show up with one adult coach, and turn out to be mouthy. On more than one occasion, I have approached a coach and explained that he's sorely mistaken if he thinks I won't follow the rulebook restrict and/or eject simply because he's the only adult present. In most cases, that means a forfeit.
  9. I posted about this rule 3 or so years ago and got skewered for it. And by the way, I know 15 guys in my Association (who don't use wheelchairs) who can't take a runner from A to 3rd on a triple, a pickoff attempt at 2nd, or a 3rd-1st/1st-3rd double play. They're immobile, but they're needed, so they're gonna work as long as they want to.
  10. Our local league would suspend both coaches for the remainder of the year and the one throwing the F bomb would never get to coach in the league again. I'm sure there would be a hearing purely to go through the motions of it and to entertain the Board. Other parents would be asked to step up, and the Board Members would, in some way, assume control of the team.
  11. Wrong again. Read the rule.
  12. FAIL. Maine ... Read the OP ...
  13. Ah. So just make it up and ignore the rulebook. I get it. Thanks. Any runner is out when: Rule 5.09(b) (2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.
  14. Abandonment? Any runner is out when: Rule 5.09(b) (2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.
  15. I don't understand this statement.
  16. The batter should be coached to do exactly what you described that he did. In fact, R3 should be ready and willing to slide right through the batter's legs if necessary. That same catcher probably hasn't been coached to go around the batter to throw down to 3rd Base, but he went around the batter on a squeeze ... when the shortest distance was in front of the batter. I don't know the age group, since you didn't mention it in the OP, but if it's 12u or higher, this boils down to poor coaching. We taught our catchers in 10u about his "right" to have a throwing lane to 2B, and his lack of a "right" to have a throwing lane to 3rd base, and his "survival of the fittest" mentality on a squeeze or straight steal of home. I'm not sure what point UmpStu is trying to make. He's right, that the batter's box isn't a sanctuary, but you described it in vivid detail, and as Rich did, we must respond as you described it.
  17. Summer High School Tournament FED Rules with a few mods R2 and a hit to deep RF. I have the plate, and all I can say is I lost concentration, because I was standing in 1BLX thinking the F9 would be throwing to 2B to gun down the batter-runner. I still should have been in 3BLX. The throw instead sails over the cutoff man and comes to the plate. Catcher is up the line only about 3 feet, ball beats R2 sliding in, F2 reaches to apply a swipe tag, I bang him out, and I get an immediate argument from the 3B Coach who says he missed the tag, and, "Would I please consider getting help." Well ... I normally despise getting help on a play that happens right under my nose, but I was clearly out of position, and couldn't actually see the tag, so I went for help. Partner said emphatically, "He missed the tag ... 100%." I turned and called the runner safe and started toward the opposite dugout to eat my crow and take the heat I knew was coming. The opposing coach sprinted out of the dugout toward my partner like he was loaded for bear and I positioned myself in front of him to block him and repeatedly said, "Coach ... you can speak to me ... this is my call." After dancing the two step for 30-60 seconds, he calms down enough to walk back with me to the home plate area and I'm able to explain that between what I had in a poor position and what my partner had from a good angle, we are confident we got the call right. Interestingly, he never argued that his catcher tagged the runner, he was just livid that I went for help and changed the call and wouldn't allow him to speak to my partner. So ... he planted himself on home plate and refused to move until I gave him a "better explanation." I finally had enough and said, "Coach, I've told you everything I can tell you ... I'm confident we ultimately got the call right, and we're done ... now you need to return to the dugout and we're gonna play." He launched into a tirade of insults, which easily should have had him ejected, but since I was still feeling culpable for blowing the call in the first place, I put up with it and it concluded with me restricting him to the dugout. I gave him the written warning and explained that if he leaves the dugout, he will be ejected. He must have said 15 times, "No I'm not ... I'm coaching 3rd base for the rest of the game." We finished that half-inning, and sure enough, he walked out toward his 3rd base box. When he got just past the plate, I tossed him. He really didn't put up much of a fight, he just continued with his insults. (It's the first time I've ever heard the words HORSE$HIT and SIR in the same sentence.) Well, this episode got back to my assignor, and he calmly told me that I should have never gone for help on that one ... EVEN THOUGH I knew I was out of position and straight-lined. He feels that no coach is ever going to accept a partner offering info to ultimately change a call from 50' away when the play was right under me. So ... I respectfully disagree. I knew I was gonna have to eat crow and take the heat, but if the Prime Directive is to get the call right, I feel I had to oblige the offensive coach and ask for help. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated — even from Ives — since he has to consider offense and defense.
  18. Intercede as CC. Here, that's not always the PU. I AGREE ... the coach had his chance, but all I can hope is … as stated … the judgment portion of the call was blown. if I were CC, in this case, I'd intercede. It's just too HUGE of a call to take a chance on getting the rule portion wrong.
  19. He's right. Maybe I didn't word the intro as thoroughly as I should have, but Richvee got the point. I was explaining what the world of baseball was like before we had the "exception" with R1 and less than two outs — where the batter is immediately called out on an U3K — and why. I don't wanna hijack the thread any further, but role-playing the IFF situation (without the IFF rule) is the best way to teach why the rule was created. "I got it!!!" Let the ball drop untouched, fire to F5, fire to F4. Cheap double play.
  20. And I'm absolutely not trying to pick nits, but with two outs and an U3K, there certainly can be a force out on a steal. For SirLanzeAlott's benefit and perhaps a few others, I know very very few umpires who even understand the beginnings and evolution of this rule. I'll only delve into the more recent part (after catchers started wearing protective gear and crouched right behind the plate instead of 25 feet behind it). EDIT (for ElkOil): This would be our unfair situation if there were no exception for calling the batter out immediately with R1 and less than two outs: R1. 1 out. OBR. If the batter would take strike three and F2 intentionally (or not) dropped the pitch, he could fire to 2B and then F4 or F6 fire to F3 and get a "cheap" double play. So, instead of thinking of 2 outs being the exception, think of "Less than 2" being the exception … very similar to the philosophy behind the infield fly rule. With 2 outs, or any other time that 1B is unoccupied, a cheap double play cannot be made ... so ... with 2 outs and R1, whether he's stealing or not, an U3K creates a force at 2B. If bases are loaded, it creates a force at every base, and F2 may simply step on the plate (even accidentally) for the force out. It is utterly amazing to me how many HS coaches and umpires are either clueless or "iffy" on this rule. I really believe knowing the history and evolution of the quirky rules solidifies them in one's mind. 1) U3K 2) IFF 3) Intentionally kicking DP ball. 4) Runners may tag up on first "touch" of fly ball ... not the "catch." 5) Runners must return to vicinity of base after foul ball. 6) Intentionally dropped pop up or line drive after batted ball hits the glove. And many, many more .......
  21. I had a similar play this spring. Partner thought runner awards were governed by TOBTOOP (Time Of Ball Trickling Out Of Play). This man has been to the State Tourney ... I told him that doesn't exist, he believed me without any fuss, and we fixed it. It's only the unteachable and stubborn partners that make me want to quit.
  22. HC: "Can I be ejected for what I'm thinking?" PU: "Nope." HC: "Good. I think you really suck." PU: "You're gone. But you may keep thinking it from the team bus."
  23. If it's any consolation, I still get yelled at by ignorant parents of HS players all the time for this very play. "PAY ATTENTION, BLUE!!! HE WAS STEALING!!! 1B WASN'T OCCUPIED!" But the only thing worse is an ignorant coach — no — an ignorant partner.
  24. Texas? Really? Isn't Texas the state where they play baseball about 51 weeks a year? This is like a basketball official blowing a game-changing call in Indiana during the Final Four.