Catch n' Carry

[Aussie123]

In a solo-umpired LL Seniors [16U] game played last night on a field with an unfenced sideline, a speedster 3rd baseman was able to make an awesome over-the-shoulder catch in live-ball territory [both feet] with his momentum carrying him out into dead-ball territory. Remaining on his feet, he fired to his SS covering 3rd base for an easy tag of advancing R-2, who incidentally had failed to tag up, and somehow must have thought that he would find 3rd base empty? 

 

At the plate meeting I had made reference to a catch and carry ground rule at this field and advised that if it were to occur, the fielder would have to both maintain possession of the ball and bring it back into LBT prior to throwing the ball. In a quest to make my plate meetings short n sweet [unlike my posts!] I did not elaborate on the penalty for making such a throw from DBT.

 

When the catch n' carry play happened with the throw coming into play from DBT, I was admittedly surprised as I had never encountered it in my 11 years of umpiring. I knew under HS FED if a player makes a catch and enters into DBT the ball is dead [5-1-1i, however, I was none too sure in LL Seniors Rules. I vaguely remembered a one base award and in the absence of having an FU to consult and/or buy a little thinking time, I sold it and awarded R-2 3rd base.

 

Of course, in spite of my referencing a catch and carry rule at our plate meeting, DC wants an out on R-2. When reminded of the fielder having to bring the ball back into LBT to make a throw, DC launches into R-2's failure to tag up and then wants to appeal the play? I said, "No appeal Coach, it's a one-base award" 

 

What's your opinion?

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

     

[BuckeyeMike]

Runners are required to correct any base running errors, even when there is a base awarded to them.   In your sitch, you go ahead and award 3B and if the runner doesn't go back and touch 2B before proceeding to 3B, then the coach has every right to appeal and the runner is out.

[Jimurray]

In a solo-umpired LL Seniors [16U] game played last night on a field with an unfenced sideline, a speedster 3rd baseman was able to make an awesome over-the-shoulder catch in live-ball territory [both feet] with his momentum carrying him out into dead-ball territory. Remaining on his feet, he fired to his SS covering 3rd base for an easy tag of advancing R-2, who incidentally had failed to tag up, and somehow must have thought that he would find 3rd base empty? 

 

At the plate meeting I had made reference to a catch and carry ground rule at this field and advised that if it were to occur, the fielder would have to both maintain possession of the ball and bring it back into LBT prior to throwing the ball. In a quest to make my plate meetings short n sweet [unlike my posts!] I did not elaborate on the penalty for making such a throw from DBT.

 

When the catch n' carry play happened with the throw coming into play from DBT, I was admittedly surprised as I had never encountered it in my 11 years of umpiring. I knew under HS FED if a player makes a catch and enters into DBT the ball is dead [5-1-1i, however, I was none too sure in LL Seniors Rules. I vaguely remembered a one base award and in the absence of having an FU to consult and/or buy a little thinking time, I sold it and awarded R-2 3rd base.

 

Of course, in spite of my referencing a catch and carry rule at our plate meeting, DC wants an out on R-2. When reminded of the fielder having to bring the ball back into LBT to make a throw, DC launches into R-2's failure to tag up and then wants to appeal the play? I said, "No appeal Coach, it's a one-base award" 

 

What's your opinion?

 

Regards

Where in OBR does it allow a ground rule preventing a throw from dead ball area?

[StrikeDavis]

There is an old city field near me where legion ball is played during the summer that has a "house rule" where you must re-establish position in the field before making a throw.  The field has an odd set up where there are permanent bleachers about 10 feet into foul territory by first base.  The field has a dead ball territory where a chalk line is drawn from the front of the bleachers to a light standard to a point on the right field fence.  Its kind of hard to describe, but basically if you are in dead ball territory and you try to throw towards home plate, you have to throw over the bleachers.  They put the rule in so the spectators in the bleachers don't get drilled with a throw.  I don't know if the field from the original post has an odd setup where there are obstacles in play, but I was thinking maybe there is a safety issue with throwing from the dead ball area.      

[johnnyg08]

I believe meaning (I read something earlier this year in one of the rule sets) about a ground rule determining if a player has to reestablish or not when entering, but not falling into dead ball territory.

Somebody on here will grab this and run w/ it.

[Guest Joltin' Joe]

BuckeyeMike says R2 is subject to appeal.  But it seems that since throw was from DBT and Aussie123 ruled 1 base award he had effectively ruled the F5 made a proper catch, then stepped into dead ball territory and then threw the ball from dead ball territory.  Aussie123 took the option of calling the ball dead since F5 did not re-establish so the ball was out of play and base awards had to be made (kind of like throwing it out of play).  Having called the ball dead there could be no proper retouch by R2 and award was for ball entering dead ball territory - IMO not re-touch was required in this situation.  (I hope that all made sense)

 

I believe jrmurray has asked the right question in where does OBR not allow throw from dead ball territory.  OBR rules were written with MLB type fields in mind where you are all enclosed so they address falling into dugout and spectator areas.  It does not really address the "catch & carry" we often get to deal with.

 

Local fields tend to have many quirks and often have special ground rules.  At plate meeting when catch and carry is discussed I ask coaches how we are playing it - 1) must completely re-establish in fair territory with both feet and base awards if they do not re-establish or 2) throw from out of play is allowed as long as fielder does not fall down.  If I can I steer them towards Option 2 as it causes less arguments about if they have re-established in play.  I think it is wise to address the possible throw requirement on catch & carry situation at plate meeting to avoid the argument when it happens (because it will as Aussie123 found out).

[noumpere]

BuckeyeMike says R2 is subject to appeal.  But it seems that since throw was from DBT and Aussie123 ruled 1 base award he had effectively ruled the F5 made a proper catch, then stepped into dead ball territory and then threw the ball from dead ball territory.  Aussie123 took the option of calling the ball dead since F5 did not re-establish so the ball was out of play and base awards had to be made (kind of like throwing it out of play).  Having called the ball dead there could be no proper retouch by R2 and award was for ball entering dead ball territory - IMO not re-touch was required in this situation.  (I hope that all made sense)

 

 

That's not correct.  The runner must still re-touch.

 

On the OP, I agree that you need to establish the rules at that field.  Some areas treat it as FED, some allow a throw, some require getting back to LBT.

 

I believe meaning (I read something earlier this year in one of the rule sets) about a ground rule determining if a player has to reestablish or not when entering, but not falling into dead ball territory.

Somebody on here will grab this and run w/ it.

That's specifically in NCAA.

[maven]

 Having called the ball dead there could be no proper retouch by R2 and award was for ball entering dead ball territory - IMO no re-touch was required in this situation.

 

Just on this point: that's incorrect. Runners may correct baserunning infractions during a dead ball. Read 7.10(b) COMMENT, which describes a play where the ball is dead and a runner may correct his mistake. That play is a missed base appeal, but the same principle applies.

 

If you don't think that applies because this is a retouch, not a missed base, appeal, consider the fact that 7.10(a) makes no exceptions for the ball becoming dead. It clearly states when a retouch is required, and the ball becoming dead never removes that requirement.

 

SITUATION: R3, 1 out. Batter flies out to LF, R3 tags but leaves early, F7's throw goes out of play. The defense appeals R3 at 3B.

 

RULING: R3 is out on the retouch appeal.

[johnnyg08]

Here's an NCAA interp from this February:

6-1d, (a)—a defensive player may catch a foul popup in the field of play and then step into a dead ball area. Without losing body control, the player may throw from a dead ball area if ground rules allow. Otherwise the player must reestablish himself in live ball territory before he can throw. In the player’s attempt to throw from DBT, he drops the ball. Award two bases as a “thrown†ball went out of play. Example: R1 and R2, batter pops up in foul territory. After a legal catch, the fielder enters DBT and prepares to throw (allowed by pregame ground rule discussions) and as he pulls his arm back, drops the ball while still in DBT.

[johnnyg08]

Guys, good discussion. Keep it up. I'm going to move this to "Rules" since Ask the Umpire is reserved for non-registered posters.

[johnnyg08]

Here's what PBUC says about retouch after a ball is dead:

[Jimurray]

BuckeyeMike says R2 is subject to appeal.  But it seems that since throw was from DBT and Aussie123 ruled 1 base award he had effectively ruled the F5 made a proper catch, then stepped into dead ball territory and then threw the ball from dead ball territory.  Aussie123 took the option of calling the ball dead since F5 did not re-establish so the ball was out of play and base awards had to be made (kind of like throwing it out of play).  Having called the ball dead there could be no proper retouch by R2 and award was for ball entering dead ball territory - IMO not re-touch was required in this situation.  (I hope that all made sense)

 

I believe jrmurray has asked the right question in where does OBR not allow throw from dead ball territory.  OBR rules were written with MLB type fields in mind where you are all enclosed so they address falling into dugout and spectator areas.  It does not really address the "catch & carry" we often get to deal with.

 

Local fields tend to have many quirks and often have special ground rules.  At plate meeting when catch and carry is discussed I ask coaches how we are playing it - 1) must completely re-establish in fair territory with both feet and base awards if they do not re-establish or 2) throw from out of play is allowed as long as fielder does not fall down.  If I can I steer them towards Option 2 as it causes less arguments about if they have re-established in play.  I think it is wise to address the possible throw requirement on catch & carry situation at plate meeting to avoid the argument when it happens (because it will as Aussie123 found out).

OBR specifically allows a catch and carry into a dugout and a throw from there. Ground rules can't supersede book rules

[noumpere]

 

OBR specifically allows a catch and carry into a dugout and a throw from there. Ground rules can't supersede book rules

 

 

I don't think this was in a dugout (and, as a practical matter, many non-pro groups do supersede the book rule in this area).

 

And, from MLBUM (but it might have been changed):

 

Play: Bases loaded, one out. Fielder catches fly ball and momentum carries him into the stands.

Fielder remains standing. Can the fielder throw for a play?

Ruling: No. "Time" is called and all runners advance one base.

[maven]

And, from MLBUM (but it might have been changed):

 

Play: Bases loaded, one out. Fielder catches fly ball and momentum carries him into the stands.

Fielder remains standing. Can the fielder throw for a play?

Ruling: No. "Time" is called and all runners advance one base.

People misinterpret an award to mean that the runner cannot possibly be put out, even on appeal. As you know, an award is the right to advance legally without liability to be put out. A base missed during an award may be appealed, as can a failure to retouch: these are illegal advances, and not protected by an award.

[johnnyg08]

Here's what the BRD says: