Frustration with Youth Baseball

[SteveJ]

Looking for opinions:

 

How do you attract and retain new umpiring talent with the increasing lack of respect shown umpires working youth game and a lack of respect for the game of baseball? Ejections are up in youth games around here and at the high school level around here as well.

 

This past weekend one of our young umpires (age 16) was working a 12U Wood-Bat league game.  There was a close play at the plate that went against the home team. I do not know if the kid made the correct call or not but he was certainly in great position and his timing was very good. The coach “goes off on the kid†which prompted a warning from the umpire – the warning was ignored so the umpire ejected the coach. Then a spectator began to curse at the umpire – the umpire calmly called the acting HC over and told him that he needed to control his spectators, which he did. Our league makes the behavior of spectators the HC’s responsibility.  Then in yet another fine example of fatherhood and good-sportsmanship a parent told the catcher, “Step out of the way and let a fastball hit the umpire†– he didn’t!

 

Same day, 13U game, a coach doesn’t get an interference call at second and after being unable to change the umpire’s mind tells his player, “Throw the ball at the runners face next timeâ€.

So what can be done?  I have suggested locally that the punishment be established. 

 

Here’s an example, what do you think?

 

Spectator curses at umpire – Spectator immediate removal from the area (no warning). Their child or whatever the relationship is restricted to the bench for the remainder of the game and the head coach ejected. Spectator banned for the remainder of the season or min of 5 games. In case the season is ending – ban would carry over to next season.

Coach curses at umpire – Immediate ejection & 5 game suspension with fine.

Player curses at umpire - Immediate ejection & 5 game suspension with fine.

Spectator encourages player to harm umpire or other players – Immediate removal from area and a 1 calendar year ban for spectator & their child/grandchild, etc. Second offense = lifetime ban for both

Coach encourages player to harm umpire or other players – Immediate ejection, fine to the team & 1 calendar year ban for coach. Second offense = lifetime ban.

 

I know that the children shouldn't be forced to pay for the sins of their fathers but if you let the parents know that not only will their behavior have consequences for them but for the child as well it might help.  We've got to do something or we'll lose umpires or never attract them. 

 

I know that as a parent if I heard an adult curse at or threaten one of my kids in any way there would be serious consequences – I’m sure that I am not alone in feeling that way. We need to figure out something before there are bigger problems.

 

Thanks for letting me rant & rave

[johnnyg08]

It's a major problem in all areas of the country.

It's a place where kids could and should learn to umpire just like kids are learning to play the game.

Unfortunately, the adults think it's MLB.

All youth leagues want the best umpires, but refuse to open their wallets to afford them. Then they complain about the quality.

Youth baseball should be the training grounds for both players and umpires.

[alan2703]

 I stay away from youth ball for that reason, when I played I had a player ask me him to help coach but warned me about the parents. I said no. I have said to more than one AD the parents should be  made to watch the game from  the parking lot with the  horn disconnected. I believe that the kids would be better behaved, but then go out dinner which I do with my family. Barbie and Ken on the phones texting the children either texting are running wild etc. Think about

[JaxRolo]

In Florida  they are trying to pass a bill that would ban coaches for a year when ejected.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2015/0238/?Tab=BillHistory

[johnnyg08]

Without having the data it seems like stiffer EJ penalties have helped the NCAA...why wouldn't it help in youth baseball where it really doesn't matter?

I worked for one season assigning youth baseball and the following year I tried to have the adult coaches call the umpires by their first names instead of "blue" and to walk the baseballs out to them in an effort to humanize the position...they fought against that like I was asking for their kidneys.

At that point, I chose to no longer be involved w/ youth baseball in my area.

[RingEmUp]

@SteveJ

 

I like your suggestions for the most part but don't punish the kids because of their idiot parents.  The kids just want to play ball. 

[scrounge]

@SteveJ

 

I like your suggestions for the most part but don't punish the kids because of their idiot parents.  The kids just want to play ball. 

 

That's the only thing these stage moms/dads pay attention to. Sometimes a blunt club is required.

 

However, I do NOT think the proposed FL law is a good idea. This shouldn't be a matter for government. Plus, if you read the text, it's absolutely toothless and meaningless. The bill says that an ejection MUST lead to a season-long suspension. HOWEVER, the league must have a system of 'due process' to allow coaches to appeal the ejection and be immediately reinstated. No definition of that process, no penalties nothing.

 

At best, we'll just have a kangaroo, kabuki theatre court where EJ's will just be overturned by rubber stamp and make a mockery of the whole thing. Or ejections can and will be abused by some. At worst, it will actually embolden the monkeys as officials - ESPECIALLY the youth umpires and less experienced - are pressured to keep people in the game.

[Cav]

1.  Spectator curses at umpire: Offending spectator's team forfeits game and is disqualified from any post-season participation.  

2.  Coach curses at umpire: Offending coach's team forfeits game and is disqualified from any post-season participation.  

3.  Player curses at umpire:  Ejected.

4.  Spectator encourages player to harm umpire or other player:  Call the police, spectator banned from premises for life, then see 1, above.

5.  Coach encourages player to harm umpire or other player: Call the police, coach banned from premises for life, then see 2, above.   

[RingEmUp]

 

@SteveJ

 

I like your suggestions for the most part but don't punish the kids because of their idiot parents.  The kids just want to play ball. 

 

That's the only thing these stage moms/dads pay attention to. Sometimes a blunt club is required.

 

However, I do NOT think the proposed FL law is a good idea. This shouldn't be a matter for government. Plus, if you read the text, it's absolutely toothless and meaningless. The bill says that an ejection MUST lead to a season-long suspension. HOWEVER, the league must have a system of 'due process' to allow coaches to appeal the ejection and be immediately reinstated. No definition of that process, no penalties nothing.

 

At best, we'll just have a kangaroo, kabuki theatre court where EJ's will just be overturned by rubber stamp and make a mockery of the whole thing. Or ejections can and will be abused by some. At worst, it will actually embolden the monkeys as officials - ESPECIALLY the youth umpires and less experienced - are pressured to keep people in the game.

 

 

You still can't take it out on the kids, ever.  You want to punish the parents, ban them from the ball fields, restrict them to the parking lot, but don't tell the kid they can't play because their parents are idiots.

[Mick]

Cav:  All good except #2.  Parents & players have set aside this day for a game of baseball.  We need to remember that it's about THE KIDS.  If a short-fused coach curses at or even says anything inappropriate to an umpire, he's gone.  But let the players play.

[Cav]

Cav:  All good except #2.  Parents & players have set aside this day for a game of baseball.  We need to remember that it's about THE KIDS.  If a short-fused coach curses at or even says anything inappropriate to an umpire, he's gone.  But let the players play.

 

OK, I'm a team player.  I was expressing my thoughts as requested in the OP.  My purpose was to set a lasting example and my intent was to take the wrath of those disappointed parents and players and turn it on the bunghole that caused all their angst; Skippy Potty-Mouth.   

 

[labguy1971]

I have coached youth baseball among other sports and now umpire youth baseball up to Varsity level baseball.  It is sad and true of your venting.  I have never tried to show up an umpire in my 15 years of coaching, but have tried my best to talk with them in a respectful manner.  As a coach, if a player showed up an umpire it was an immediate benching and suspension for the next game.  As an umpire now, I see some of the parents, coaches and players just go off on us and it is shameful.  Starts in the home, but a coach that tolerates or practices horid behavior in front of these young players should be banned from coaching.  Can't fix the home as that has been a problem for quite some time.

[johnnyg08]

Can't fix the home as that has been a problem for quite some time.

While I think I agree for the most part, that would be the reason for the stricter guidelines. People who can't take care of or manage themselves need more structure.

[basejester]

Without having the data it seems like stiffer EJ penalties have helped the NCAA...why wouldn't it help in youth baseball where it really doesn't matter?

For every level of sport, there's somebody who thinks his level is the real deal, levels below him don't matter, and somebody above that guy who thinks his level doesn't matter.

None of it matters. It's a game. We're just supposing it's really important who runs around that square how may times. The greatest game, but still a game.

[Umpire in Chief]

These are some of the reasons I despise calling youth games. The playing ability, or lack thereof, is what it is and if truth be told can actually be endearing in moderation. But as has been said, the adults are ruining the game.

 

I've said I haven't been able to work many games yet again this year part of the reason is I block Saturday & Sunday from all assigners other than college. Even if I called the day of and said I was available, I'm more than sure I would have been scheduled. But I'd rather be at home with my family than work these games.

 

Over the years I have developed a sour taste towards youth baseball, and I believe it is a combination of the parents/coaches, being scheduled too many games a day (my max per day is 2, 3 if there is a bind), the playing ability and a few other things. But IMO the worst is the adults and if they weren't a problem the other things would be more tolerable. But their being PITAs compounds the other issues. 

 

Sidebar

My daughter use to play rec and AAU volleyball (I really wish she would continue, she's 13 y/o, 5'10" and still growing and has some natural talent). She had the same coach for most of her rec and all AAU from the time she was 7 to 12. As an AAU coach he had monthly parent's meetings and as a rec coach he had one at the beginning of the season and one in the middle. He was THE best all around coach I have ever known. In his parents meeting he politely laid down the law on expected behavior of parents and players. He said if there was an officiating issue, he would handle it. He even gained an extra special place in my heart when he would tell the players and parents the officials are out there doing their best but they are still going to miss some and when that happens we're going to be disappointed, but that is all. We're not make any comments about it either directly or indirectly we're going to encourage the girls and not let them get distracted about it because if we get bent out of shape about it, it will affect the girls. He even told everyone unless absolutely necessary the most he'd most likely do is request a do-over, but he wouldn't be requesting too many of those. He told everyone that we'd never be in a situation where we would lose because of officiating.

Our AAU team had a girl's father get transferred away and held tryouts for the opening. Before the tryouts started he gave the same speech to the parents of the girls trying to make the team. There was one dad who aggressively challenged the coach about arguing and his sportsmanship expectations. After the meeting I just happened to be within earshot of the coach telling the father that he doesn't think that he (the father) was going to be a good fit for the team and he was not going to extend an invitation to the daughter. The guy blew up yelling profanities and screaming as he left. I just told the coach, "good call".

Just as an aside about this coach, his methods worked as a 7 y/o under him in rec the team went from 0-5 to 7-7 and came in 2nd place in the tournament. Every other year in rec his team was undefeated (2 times my daughter was put on other teams). In AAU we did really well too. Placing 1st - 3rd in most tournaments we played in.

He was also a great sportsman and taught that to all the girls. We completely over matched one opponent in the first set (it was ugly). Second set he told the girls they could only serve 2 times if they got a 3rd serve attempt they were to serve it to the back wall. If there was a return we'd have to pass twice and have 3 different girls touch the ball, we'd also not challenge them at the net. There were other similar situations where he put restrictions on how the girls were to play. My daughter even got benched once for making a (dare I say an awesome) block at the net when they were told not to challenge at the net. She said instinct just took over. 

Looking back those years with him were some of the best times in sports I've had and I wasn't even a participant.

I hope my daughter changes her mind and decides to play again. I stay on the team's email list and let her know each time there's been an opening.

[MadMax]

 

Without having the data it seems like stiffer EJ penalties have helped the NCAA...why wouldn't it help in youth baseball where it really doesn't matter?

I worked for one season assigning youth baseball and the following year I tried to have the adult coaches call the umpires by their first names instead of "blue" and to walk the baseballs out to them in an effort to humanize the position...they fought against that like I was asking for their kidneys.

At that point, I chose to no longer be involved w/ youth baseball in my area.

Because, @johnnyg08, of a phenomenon I call "The Dilution (or Eradication) of Consequences". This has permeated through all manners of society, but for this topic, it is exceptionally applicable.

The escalation of penalties for Ejections in the NCAA works because there are consequences, and the consequences compound and aggregate into docks in pay, reduction of respect, and/or loss of job. And if you get a bad reputation, proven on paper (or webpage, per the current lexicon), good luck finding another job in the same aspect. Very, very few AD's have the wherewithal to defy, let alone endure, an inundation of scrutiny and criticism from the mass that is social media. Today's culture wants to – in some cases, demands to – see punishment doled out. Few will be the voices bolstering and supporting the coach, or recommending a second chance be extended; or, more likely, they will be drowned out by the near-incessant campaigning of those opposed, and who want to see "justice" to satisfy their own self-righteousness.

To a certain extant, but on a smaller scale, it also works in High School, because that coach has to answer to an AD, who himself has to answer to the School Board.

But then, here's the crux of the whole problem – who do the parents (and/or travel/youth ball coaches) answer to?

The Florida Courts are attempting to implement that which, rightly so, they've identified as lacking – consequences. An Ejection is a punishing act, but what are the consequences of that action? Most parents of today have they themselves been raised in this age of Consequence-less-ness. "Oh, it's okay little Billy, it's the car's fault for hitting you when you ran out into traffic", or "Everything's going to be alright, Tammy. Everyone will understand and accept why you took $100 out of the register at work after we discuss it with your boss, who you also call an oppressive ogre on your Tweets. #WorkSux".

I agree with @scrounge that government stepping in, in this manner, is not to the benefit of the situation. Where the government can step in, in the most effective way, is to publicly identify and indemnify the administrative board or office of these youth leagues and emphasize that they are the authority, and whatever the office rules is going to be upheld.

Then it just takes an administrative staff with a spine to withstand the inevitable gripes and backlash. See, parents today think that, just because they "pay all this money" to place their kids in this league and that league that they are entitled to preferential treatment and forum with how the league operates. It is vitally imperative that a league administration – no matter how big or small, major or minor – outline a set of expectations for the behaviour of all involved, and then have the stones and conviction to hold to it. Furthermore, identify that umpires – regardless the age – are the representatives of these policies. Umpires are not the creators, outliners, or enforcers of policy; umpires are the enforcers of the game of baseball. The impetus lies with the administrative staff to support their umpires' enforcement of the rules inside the fence while themselves enforcing the policies outside the fence.

And if the consequences are that you (as administrative staff) dismiss a family (parents & kids) from the league because of a/the parents' actions, with forfeiture of participation fees, then so be it.

[RichMSN]

A coach being asked to leave is consequence enough. The real problem is that youth umpires work far too hard to keep these asshats in games.

I don't. The rare occasion I work this crap there is no verbal judo. It's "knock it off" followed by "get out.". Once word gets around you hear people whispering "these guys don't take any crap" and smile.

[johnnyg08]

 

Without having the data it seems like stiffer EJ penalties have helped the NCAA...why wouldn't it help in youth baseball where it really doesn't matter?

I worked for one season assigning youth baseball and the following year I tried to have the adult coaches call the umpires by their first names instead of "blue" and to walk the baseballs out to them in an effort to humanize the position...they fought against that like I was asking for their kidneys.

At that point, I chose to no longer be involved w/ youth baseball in my area.

 

Because, @johnnyg08, of a phenomenon I call "The Dilution (or Eradication) of Consequences". This has permeated through all manners of society, but for this topic, it is exceptionally applicable.

 

The escalation of penalties for Ejections in the NCAA works because there are consequences, and the consequences compound and aggregate into docks in pay, reduction of respect, and/or loss of job. And if you get a bad reputation, proven on paper (or webpage, per the current lexicon), good luck finding another job in the same aspect. Very, very few AD's have the wherewithal to defy, let alone endure, an inundation of scrutiny and criticism from the mass that is social media. Today's culture wants to – in some cases, demands to – see punishment doled out. Few will be the voices bolstering and supporting the coach, or recommending a second chance be extended; or, more likely, they will be drowned out by the near-incessant campaigning of those opposed, and who want to see "justice" to satisfy their own self-righteousness.

 

To a certain extant, but on a smaller scale, it also works in High School, because that coach has to answer to an AD, who himself has to answer to the School Board.

 

But then, here's the crux of the whole problem – who do the parents (and/or travel/youth ball coaches) answer to?

 

The Florida Courts are attempting to implement that which, rightly so, they've identified as lacking – consequences. An Ejection is a punishing act, but what are the consequences of that action? Most parents of today have they themselves been raised in this age of Consequence-less-ness. "Oh, it's okay little Billy, it's the car's fault for hitting you when you ran out into traffic", or "Everything's going to be alright, Tammy. Everyone will understand and accept why you took $100 out of the register at work after we discuss it with your boss, who you also call an oppressive ogre on your Tweets. #WorkSux".

 

I agree with @scrounge that government stepping in, in this manner, is not to the benefit of the situation. Where the government can step in, in the most effective way, is to publicly identify and indemnify the administrative board or office of these youth leagues and emphasize that they are the authority, and whatever the office rules is going to be upheld.

 

Then it just takes an administrative staff with a spine to withstand the inevitable gripes and backlash. See, parents today think that, just because they "pay all this money" to place their kids in this league and that league that they are entitled to preferential treatment and forum with how the league operates. It is vitally imperative that a league administration – no matter how big or small, major or minor – outline a set of expectations for the behaviour of all involved, and then have the stones and conviction to hold to it. Furthermore, identify that umpires – regardless the age – are the representatives of these policies. Umpires are not the creators, outliners, or enforcers of policy; umpires are the enforcers of the game of baseball. The impetus lies with the administrative staff to support their umpires' enforcement of the rules inside the fence while themselves enforcing the policies outside the fence.

 

And if the consequences are that you (as administrative staff) dismiss a family (parents & kids) from the league because of a/the parents' actions, with forfeiture of participation fees, then so be it.

 

 

Nicely articulated.  Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

[johnnyg08]

A coach being asked to leave is consequence enough. The real problem is that youth umpires work far too hard to keep these asshats in games.

I don't. The rare occasion I work this crap there is no verbal judo. It's "knock it off" followed by "get out.". Once word gets around you hear people whispering "these guys don't take any crap" and smile.

 

While I completely agree, what can happened in these situations is that the coach/team/whomever will simply black ball or block that umpire or crew...and invite some other whipping boy to take the abuse.

[mjr_2013]

A coach being asked to leave is consequence enough. The real problem is that youth umpires work far too hard to keep these asshats in games.

I don't. The rare occasion I work this crap there is no verbal judo. It's "knock it off" followed by "get out.". Once word gets around you hear people whispering "these guys don't take any crap" and smile.

 

This. Last year in the LL I oversee the umpires for, we had one ejection in 200-some games. And it was from me.

 

This year I told the umpires straight up that I expect ejections this year. We will not take the abuse. All they are doing when they don't eject on ejectionable offenses is pass the problem onto the next umpire, who passes it on the next umpire, and it gets progressively worse.

 

I absolutely laid down the law in the coaches meeting as well that I don't want to hear any complaining after the first ejection because this is what the umpires were taught, and everyone is on the same page.

 

Why do I feel like my 16 year old umpires will listen, but the 40 year old coaches won't?

[bds53]

I see this all the time. The problem comes from those people in power that don't care. It starts at the top and when there is little to no support it makes it hard to keep and attract people. People can go to McDonalds and make more than they could umpiring, and why not? They don't get berated and yelled at for doing their job.

I have tried a lot of things in the past. Code of Conducts, better training, etc. What I have found that works really well is to make sure youth umpires look the part, attend coaches and umpire trainings, and that all parties sign an in depth code of conduct. A youth umpire in full uniform and who attends coaches meetings shows that they have a commitment compared to Joe Schmo in a tshirt and shorts. I make it known to my coaches that my umpires receive in depth training, have thorough evaluations, and take a rules test. In my rules meeting, I show the coaches what it is like to be in a training session and what our test questions are like. Out at the games, they see me work with young umpires during the first few weeks. There are swift punishments for coaches, parents, spectators, and players who violate our code of conduct. My facility supervisors are trained to spot problems before they get out of control and make sure that they do not get out of hand. I still have a fair share of people that don't conform to our rules, but those people are few and far between. Our issues have decreased dramatically since we have instituted these measures. It's not perfect, and it can become a very heavy workload, but it is a start and it has helped.

[Mick]

As I read all of this, I drift back.  Back to another day, another age, another era.  It was the 60's, and I was a teen.  Pick up baseball?  Happened 3-4 times a week in the summer.  We'd call each other, get a game together, and work out the teams once we got there.  Sometimes (often in my early teens) it was 3 on 3.  Second base was home plate, and we hit toward center field.  Other times, we'd play 6 on 6 or more.  No supervision.  No adults.  We played all afternoon in blistering heat.  Sure, we had arguments.  We got through it.

 

We rode out bikes there, bat across the handlebars. glove strapped onto the bat handle.  Then after our game, we'd ride to one of the local corner stores and get a soda.  And we'd talk about when out next game would be, and how the teams had to be rearranged.

 

We had no idea what a precious age of innocence that was.  We played baseball.  We loved baseball.  That was all that mattered all summer long.

[SJA]

One problem that exists is if the parent or "guardian / spectator at the game" is ejected and from the game site, the question remains "who is NOW RESPONSIBLE for the child" at the game? . . . Manager, Coach, etc?.

[Majordave]

@Mick

You really struck a chord with me there pal. We did the same growing up in Lexington, KY suburbs in late 60s thru mid 70s. Man I miss those days. We played baseball at the lot or rode bikes to our park and played on the little league fields just as you described, bats on our handlebars. We played neighborhood vs neighborhood or just whoever whoever showed up. If no park we played wiffleball in the backyards with "house rules" (balls caught off the roofs or after bouncing off the garage roof or walls in the air were outs). We could only pickoff a runner by throwing the ball at them and hitting them with it. (Anywhere on the body. NOT the head/face). Arguments? Yes! Work it out ourselves? Yes! Trips to local market for sodas, candy bars, gum and baseball cards? Hell yeah! Games that lasted for days or weeks? Oh yeah! Occasionally letting a girl play? Yeppers. If only three or four available. We played what we called "hotbox". Others call it "pickle" or "rundown".

Man what memories.

I couldn't have paid my son and his friends to play like we played in our yard. I built a little league sized field with mound and buried plate and bases and even a backstop and an "L" screen. Could not get them to play unless I orchestrated it. My LL teams practiced there. We played scrimmage games against other teams on it when park field wasn't available. Never understood why they weren't into playing like we did. They were all athletic as hell. Most played some college sport. Just didn't play like we did when I was a kid.

[johnnyg08]

As I read all of this, I drift back.  Back to another day, another age, another era.  It was the 60's, and I was a teen.  Pick up baseball?  Happened 3-4 times a week in the summer.  We'd call each other, get a game together, and work out the teams once we got there.  Sometimes (often in my early teens) it was 3 on 3.  Second base was home plate, and we hit toward center field.  Other times, we'd play 6 on 6 or more.  No supervision.  No adults.  We played all afternoon in blistering heat.  Sure, we had arguments.  We got through it.

 

We rode out bikes there, bat across the handlebars. glove strapped onto the bat handle.  Then after our game, we'd ride to one of the local corner stores and get a soda.  And we'd talk about when out next game would be, and how the teams had to be rearranged.

 

We had no idea what a precious age of innocence that was.  We played baseball.  We loved baseball.  That was all that mattered all summer long.

Brings me back. Fantastic memories of my youth. Thanks Mick