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Balk or no balk?


johnnyg08
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Balks are my worst category. I can't tell, but did his non pivot foot cross the pitchers plate? If it did, wouldn't that be a balk in Fed? It also looked like he came double set, but the playback was choppy on my phone.

 

The foot definitely didn't cross the back edge of the rubber.  Hard to tell on a possible double set because the view is so far away.  I'm thinking he was wiggling his hands on what you thought was his first stop.   F3 was making a play on the runner, so no balk for that either.  

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Video is pretty distant and not clear but on first look, no balk.  Face it, that's all we get usually.  However, for learning what a close to the edge of balk looks like this is pretty good to watch it several times.  

 

I see all kinds of things going on.  

 

1. Possible double set.  Very close.

2. Possible lead/front foot crossing edge of pitcher's plate. Again, very close.

3. Possible move toward plate with front foot or sets front foot right at the  45 degree point when he steps.

4. Also the first baseman being off bag when throw was made causes you to think about it a little bit.

 

Again, we only get a single quick look in real life.

 

 

Great review video for discussion.  A real clinic there in one video.

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1. Possible double set.  Very close.

2. Possible lead front crossing edge of pitcher's plate. Again, very close.

3. Possible move toward plate with front foot or sets front foot right at the  45 degree point when he steps.

4. Also the first baseman being off bag when throw was made causes you to think about it a little bit.

 

  1. Possible, but I see something moving the whole time.
  2. I'm guessing you mean "lead foot," as in free foot. Which edge of the rubber is relevant to that call, front or back? I'm not sure I agree that this one is close.
  3. This looks more like it might be an issue from one angle than the other.
  4. This is the issue most worth discussing. F3 being away from the bag by itself is not a reason for a balk. He must be in a position where he can make a play, which requires that he must have a reasonable opportunity to tag the runner off the base. That is much more likely when he's playing in front than behind the runner, and I'd rule on this accordingly.

No balk.

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@maven

 

Agree with all of your assessments.  I just listed the things I saw as discussion points for us experienced guys to discuss for the benefit of the lesser experienced umpires.  

 

Although I do think, no know, that I can still learn a thing or two.   

 

 

Great discussion.

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@maven

 

Agree with all of your assessments.  I just listed the things I saw as discussion points for us experienced guys to discuss for the benefit of the lesser experienced umpires.  

 

Although I do think, no know, that I can still learn a thing or two.   

 

 

Great discussion.

 

And I appreciate your interest in generating discussion.

 

Some of our newer colleagues feel a bit overwhelmed by balks, since they're not always sure what they should be looking at. Accordingly, I always try to simplify rather than to raise every possible issue.

 

I'm guessing the OP meant to inquire about the provision requiring F1 to throw to 1B -- "to the base" -- rather than to F3. That provision is sometimes misunderstood, and worth discussing in its own right.

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Being one of the "lesser experienced" umpires," I agree balks can be overwhelming, so appreciate any and all posts and discussions.  I don't see a violation here.  Looks like he stepped toward and threw it to the base--had F-3 been standing on the bag, I think he could have fielded the ball from the base.  I assume he could single, double, or triple hop it there--heck he could probably roll it there, as long as he steps toward and throws it to the base.  It's irrelevant in my mind that F-3 ended up intercepting the ball before it got to the base, or that F-3 was nowhere near the base when the step and throw occurred. The rule doesn't require a defensive player to be anywhere near the base, just that the base be occupied which 1st was.

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Being one of the "lesser experienced" umpires," I agree balks can be overwhelming, so appreciate any and all posts and discussions.  I don't see a violation here.  Looks like he stepped toward and threw it to the base--had F-3 been standing on the bag, I think he could have fielded the ball from the base.  I assume he could single, double, or triple hop it there--heck he could probably roll it there, as long as he steps toward and throws it to the base.  It's irrelevant in my mind that F-3 ended up intercepting the ball before it got to the base, or that F-3 was nowhere near the base when the step and throw occurred. The rule doesn't require a defensive player to be anywhere near the base, just that the base be occupied which 1st was.

 

At first base, it does. There has to be a legitimate attempt to retire the runner at first, which I believe there was in this play. If the first baseman had been playing back in his normal alignment behind the runner and the pitcher threw over without the first baseman making a play, it would be a balk

 

Balk.  He came set twice.

 

This would really be picking boogers at this level. 

 

The pitcher's free foot doesn't come close to crossing over the back of the rubber either. His entire free foot or any part of his leg have to cross the back edge, and that doesn't happen here. 

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This would really be picking boogers at this level. 

 

The pitcher's free foot doesn't come close to crossing over the back of the rubber either. His entire free foot or any part of his leg have to cross the back edge, and that doesn't happen here. 

 

I thought it was only the foot?

 

Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the

back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on

a pick-off play.

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Being one of the "lesser experienced" umpires," I agree balks can be overwhelming, so appreciate any and all posts and discussions.  I don't see a violation here.  Looks like he stepped toward and threw it to the base--had F-3 been standing on the bag, I think he could have fielded the ball from the base.  I assume he could single, double, or triple hop it there--heck he could probably roll it there, as long as he steps toward and throws it to the base.  It's irrelevant in my mind that F-3 ended up intercepting the ball before it got to the base, or that F-3 was nowhere near the base when the step and throw occurred. The rule doesn't require a defensive player to be anywhere near the base, just that the base be occupied which 1st was.

 

At first base, it does. There has to be a legitimate attempt to retire the runner at first, which I believe there was in this play. If the first baseman had been playing back in his normal alignment behind the runner and the pitcher threw over without the first baseman making a play, it would be a balk

 

Balk.  He came set twice.

 

This would really be picking boogers at this level. 

 

The pitcher's free foot doesn't come close to crossing over the back of the rubber either. His entire free foot or any part of his leg have to cross the back edge, and that doesn't happen here.

OBR only requires any part of the foot past the back edge of the rubber. The knee can cross and the pitcher can still go to 1B. You have to go to PBUC or MLBUM for the interp.

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Being one of the "lesser experienced" umpires," I agree balks can be overwhelming, so appreciate any and all posts and discussions.  I don't see a violation here.  Looks like he stepped toward and threw it to the base--had F-3 been standing on the bag, I think he could have fielded the ball from the base.  I assume he could single, double, or triple hop it there--heck he could probably roll it there, as long as he steps toward and throws it to the base.  It's irrelevant in my mind that F-3 ended up intercepting the ball before it got to the base, or that F-3 was nowhere near the base when the step and throw occurred. The rule doesn't require a defensive player to be anywhere near the base, just that the base be occupied which 1st was.

 

At first base, it does. There has to be a legitimate attempt to retire the runner at first, which I believe there was in this play. If the first baseman had been playing back in his normal alignment behind the runner and the pitcher threw over without the first baseman making a play, it would be a balk

 

Balk.  He came set twice.

 

This would really be picking boogers at this level. 

 

The pitcher's free foot doesn't come close to crossing over the back of the rubber either. His entire free foot or any part of his leg have to cross the back edge, and that doesn't happen here.

OBR only requires any part of the foot past the back edge of the rubber. The knee can cross and the pitcher can still go to 1B. You have to go to PBUC or MLBUM for the interp.

 

 

It's an NCAA rule. (9-3-L) I didn't know it wasn't the same until I just checked the BRD. The BRD has the OBR interp. Jaksa/Roder claims that in OBR, any part of the foot crossing the back edge of the rubber commits the pitcher to pitch. The entire free foot doesn't have to break the plane. 

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Being one of the "lesser experienced" umpires," I agree balks can be overwhelming, so appreciate any and all posts and discussions.  I don't see a violation here.  Looks like he stepped toward and threw it to the base--had F-3 been standing on the bag, I think he could have fielded the ball from the base.  I assume he could single, double, or triple hop it there--heck he could probably roll it there, as long as he steps toward and throws it to the base.  It's irrelevant in my mind that F-3 ended up intercepting the ball before it got to the base, or that F-3 was nowhere near the base when the step and throw occurred.
The rule doesn't require a defensive player to be anywhere near the base, just that the base be occupied which 1st was.

 

At first base, it does. There has to be a legitimate attempt to retire the runner at first, which I believe there was in this play. If the first baseman had been playing back in his normal alignment behind the runner and the pitcher threw over without the first baseman making a play, it would be a balk

 

Balk.  He came set twice.

 

This would really be picking boogers at this level. 

 

The pitcher's free foot doesn't come close to crossing over the back of the rubber either. His entire free foot or any part of his leg have to cross the back edge, and that doesn't happen here.

OBR only requires any part of the foot past the back edge of the rubber. The knee can cross and the pitcher can still go to 1B. You have to go to PBUC or MLBUM for the interp.

 

It's an NCAA rule. (9-3-L) I didn't know it wasn't the same until I just checked the BRD. The BRD has the OBR interp. Jaksa/Roder claims that in OBR, any part of the foot crossing the back edge of the rubber commits the pitcher to pitch. The entire free foot doesn't have to break the plane.

For the record, FED, the whole foot behind the back edge, NCAA entire foot or any part of stride leg behind back edge, OBR we have just discussed.

Who has called this in two man? I have heard of guys calling it using the criteria of if he saw the bottom of the foot. I know of one guy that changes position in B to have an angle on the look. I did see one pitcher recently that I would have called because it was very obvious but he never went to1B.

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Who has called this in two man? I have heard of guys calling it using the criteria of if he saw the bottom of the foot. I know of one guy that changes position in B to have an angle on the look. I did see one pitcher recently that I would have called because it was very obvious but he never went to1B.

I think they have to give umpires a tool in Umpire School to enforce this rule so they give the bottom of the shoe as a guide. They can never say to not enforce it...but I've never seen it called and I don't see myself ever calling it unless I'm working at least three man.

I would never sacrifice my positioning on the field to try and see this.

If you're going to call this, you have to be 100%. Get the whales, leave the minnows.

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Bottom of the foot works OK for OBR, which rules a balk for any part of the foot crossing the back plane of the rubber.

That's not enough for FED/NCAA, which requires the whole foot. That's pretty hard to judge from B, and even harder from deep B. Unless it's absolutely obvious (so even PU could get it), you're better off leaving this one alone.

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