Thoughts and advice

[bluejerred]

Worked a tournament yesterday.  I was BU.  1st inning, in the middle of an AB, coach calls time to talk to my partner.  In between innings, I ask my partner what that was all about.  He said the coach came up and said, "I know I can't argue balls and strikes, but where was that pitch?"  To me, I translate that to, "I know I can't argue balls and strikes, but I'm going to argue balls and strikes." 

 

Game goes on and they are getting after my partner more and more.  They continue to chirp and inning by inning, they are going into darker and darker shades of gray with the sarcasm, chatter, etc.  He gives them a warning but they are still getting after them. 

 

3rd inning, the HC starts becoming belligerent and I'm already walking towards the dugout getting ready to play rodeo clown.  Partner keeps him in the game.

 

4th inning, I'm in A position and the AC 1BC starts complaning to me about the strike zone.  I tell him, "look, you guys have been warned and this is a verboden conversation.  We can't talk about this."  He keeps on and I toss him.

 

Games were only 1:10, no new innings so this all piled on pretty quick.

 

What would your actions, thought processes, etc. would have been throughout the game?  Where would you guys have pulled the trigger?

[maven]

Warn once, eject. Improve your game by getting it done early.

 

Why should I suffer a bunch of loudmouth idiots? Toss the first howler monkey, and the rest usually clam up.

[Jocko]

I generally ignore ACs complaints about the strike zone. They're just venting frustration. Until they ask a question, I don't say anything. Then, when they do ask about the zone, I remind we are 90' away and have a terrible angle. If that doesn't do the trick, I continue ignoring. They're not as dumb as they look. This usually transpires within about a pitch or two. They get the message pretty quickly.

I toss for very specific reasons. ACs talking the zone to BU isn't usually one of em.

[Jocko]

Warn once, eject. Improve your game by getting it done early.

 

Why should I suffer a bunch of loudmouth idiots? Toss the first howler monkey, and the rest usually clam up.

while I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, I think some of the younger/lesser experienced guys here need to know it's ok NOT to EJ sometimes too. Maybe it's just me, but the vibe I'm getting here lately is that there are some EJ hunters here with itchy trigger fingers. Ejections are a specialty tool we use when none of our other tools work. Go through the process and exhaust all possible resources before you ej. But, when they gotta go, they gotta go. Just make sure you don't jump the gun because you can.

[umpstu]

Warn once, eject. Improve your game by getting it done early.

 

Why should I suffer a bunch of loudmouth idiots? Toss the first howler monkey, and the rest usually clam up.

I get to use howler monkey.

[maven]

while I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, I think some of the younger/lesser experienced guys here need to know it's ok NOT to EJ sometimes too. Maybe it's just me, but the vibe I'm getting here lately is that there are some EJ hunters here with itchy trigger fingers. Ejections are a specialty tool we use when none of our other tools work. Go through the process and exhaust all possible resources before you ej. But, when they gotta go, they gotta go. Just make sure you don't jump the gun because you can.

 

True enough. I agree that it's possible to ignore to a point. My post was based on the OP's case and the ABS EJ.

 

In my experience, guys — especially, but not only, newer guys — ignore too long. Then the warnings begin, warn, warn, warn. Poor guys end up buried in steaming piles of rat crap and wonder where it all went wrong.

 

Determine where you draw the line, then enforce it.

[bluejerred]

I generally ignore ACs complaints about the strike zone. They're just venting frustration. Until they ask a question, I don't say anything. Then, when they do ask about the zone, I remind we are 90' away and have a terrible angle. If that doesn't do the trick, I continue ignoring. They're not as dumb as they look. This usually transpires within about a pitch or two. They get the message pretty quickly.

I toss for very specific reasons. ACs talking the zone to BU isn't usually one of em.

 

You are probably right @Jocko.  I just don't like it when business isn't getting handled and it starts to come out to me.  I'm trying to focus on my responsibilities and I always have my partners' back.  That being said, it was obvious that he wasn't going to toss anybody even though they clearly deserved it.  I didn't want to be seen as somebody who wouldn't take care of business so I did what I felt I had to do at the time to get some control of the game.

[bluejerred]

Plays on the bases, I have no trouble talking about what I saw.  I like to think that I can be approached.  However, and maybe it's just me, the strike zone is a very taboo subject.  Everybody knows it's a taboo subject.  I've also noticed in my short umpiring career that once it starts about the strike zone, it only gets worse.  It's one of the things that has to get nipped in the bud swiftly or it grows out of control.

[th3]

Worked a tournament yesterday.  I was BU.  1st inning, in the middle of an AB, coach calls time to talk to my partner.  In between innings, I ask my partner what that was all about.  He said the coach came up and said, "I know I can't argue balls and strikes, but where was that pitch?"  To me, I translate that to, "I know I can't argue balls and strikes, but I'm going to argue balls and strikes." 

 

Game goes on and they are getting after my partner more and more.  They continue to chirp and inning by inning, they are going into darker and darker shades of gray with the sarcasm, chatter, etc.  He gives them a warning but they are still getting after them. 

 

3rd inning, the HC starts becoming belligerent and I'm already walking towards the dugout getting ready to play rodeo clown.  Partner keeps him in the game.

 

4th inning, I'm in A position and the AC 1BC starts complaning to me about the strike zone.  I tell him, "look, you guys have been warned and this is a verboden conversation.  We can't talk about this."  He keeps on and I toss him.

 

Games were only 1:10, no new innings so this all piled on pretty quick.

 

What would your actions, thought processes, etc. would have been throughout the game?  Where would you guys have pulled the trigger?

maybe he thought verboden meant "permitted"

[stl_ump]

* "nip it in the bud"

 

*Barney Fife

[umpire_scott]

I would like to get some of the experts thoughts on ejecting someone that is complaining about/to your partner.  I'm sometimes reluctant to step in, not because I don't have my partners back but rather because I think it can undermine my partner's authority a little.  So in the situation described in the OP I could have seen me acting very similar as the BU and not tossed until the conversation was directed at me.  

 

Thoughts?

[ALStripes17]

I would like to get some of the experts thoughts on ejecting someone that is complaining about/to your partner. I'm sometimes reluctant to step in, not because I don't have my partners back but rather because I think it can undermine my partner's authority a little. So in the situation described in the OP I could have seen me acting very similar as the BU and not tossed until the conversation was directed at me.

Thoughts?

I try to have some type of relationship with 1BC from the 1st inning. This makes it very easy for me to remind him that he can't talk to me about balls and strikes because those aren't my call.

Most of the coaches I work with have the 'lightbulb moment' and stop conversation there.

A select few decide to be childish and tell me I'm unapproachable.

That's good bc I don't want to talk to the AC anyway ;)

[maven]

I would like to get some of the experts thoughts on ejecting someone that is complaining about/to your partner.  I'm sometimes reluctant to step in, not because I don't have my partners back but rather because I think it can undermine my partner's authority a little.  So in the situation described in the OP I could have seen me acting very similar as the BU and not tossed until the conversation was directed at me.  

 

Thoughts?

 

I don't know whether I count as an expert, but he11 it's a discussion forum...

 

For me, the issue turns almost entirely on how experienced and/or strong my partner is. I'm much more likely to contribute with an inexperienced partner than with an experienced one.

 

Even with an experienced partner, if the conversation lasts more than 60 seconds, I'll start drifting his way in case he wants to talk.

 

In HS games around here, we just don't have a lot of problems with coaches.

[immaculate1976]

I agree with maven if I have a strong partner I dont have to say much cause good umpires have good zones so this does not happen and if it does the coach usually is gone quick. If it is a young umpire I will tell the coach to knock it off cause I want to protect my young ump. The worst thing is when you get a ump with a zone that is just horrible. I will never sell my partner out but at the same time I am not going to war for a umpire that seems to not care enough about his job to learn the zone. 

[Jocko]

I agree with maven if I have a strong partner I dont have to say much cause good umpires have good zones so this does not happen and if it does the coach usually is gone quick. If it is a young umpire I will tell the coach to knock it off cause I want to protect my young ump. The worst thing is when you get a ump with a zone that is just horrible. I will never sell my partner out but at the same time I am not going to war for a umpire that seems to not care enough about his job to learn the zone.

I fully understand your thoughts. But I won't allow coaches to attack my partner, regardless of his zone. The time to deal with training and teaching is OFF the field. But, while we're a crew, we're a team. Ppl won't differentiate one ump from another most of the time. You're "the umps" or "those umps." The only friend you have on the field is your partner. Even if he's bad, he's still your teammate. Look for timing/head height/tracking issues and maybe tell him between innings what you see. But ffs don't just stand there while he gets raked across the coals. We've all had those horseSH*# games. If he's off, the complaining will only be compounded by your lack of teamwork. And his zone will deteriorate even further. Don't just be a partner, be the partner YOU would want to work with.

[umpire_scott]

 

I agree with maven if I have a strong partner I dont have to say much cause good umpires have good zones so this does not happen and if it does the coach usually is gone quick. If it is a young umpire I will tell the coach to knock it off cause I want to protect my young ump. The worst thing is when you get a ump with a zone that is just horrible. I will never sell my partner out but at the same time I am not going to war for a umpire that seems to not care enough about his job to learn the zone.

I fully understand your thoughts. But I won't allow coaches to attack my partner, regardless of his zone. The time to deal with training and teaching is OFF the field. But, while we're a crew, we're a team. Ppl won't differentiate one ump from another most of the time. You're "the umps" or "those umps." The only friend you have on the field is your partner. Even if he's bad, he's still your teammate. Look for timing/head height/tracking issues and maybe tell him between innings what you see. But ffs don't just stand there while he gets raked across the coals. We've all had those horseSH*# games. If he's off, the complaining will only be compounded by your lack of teamwork. And his zone will deteriorate even further. Don't just be a partner, be the partner YOU would want to work with.

 

 

That's just it.  If the coaches are complaining about my zone I don't want my partner to intervene.  I want to handle it.  And I'm talking about comments directed at me or chirps from the dugout about my zone.  So being the "partner YOU would want to work with" would be to keep my mouth shut.  All umpires have different thresholds. Mine may be less and therefore I don't want to infringe on my partner's threshold.  I work a lot of games with umpires that I've never met before.  If it is clearly a less experienced umpire that is probably looking for the help then I'm more likely to step in.  But if it is not evident then I'm reluctant to for fear of undermining his authority.

[Jocko]

I agree with maven if I have a strong partner I dont have to say much cause good umpires have good zones so this does not happen and if it does the coach usually is gone quick. If it is a young umpire I will tell the coach to knock it off cause I want to protect my young ump. The worst thing is when you get a ump with a zone that is just horrible. I will never sell my partner out but at the same time I am not going to war for a umpire that seems to not care enough about his job to learn the zone.

I fully understand your thoughts. But I won't allow coaches to attack my partner, regardless of his zone. The time to deal with training and teaching is OFF the field. But, while we're a crew, we're a team. Ppl won't differentiate one ump from another most of the time. You're "the umps" or "those umps." The only friend you have on the field is your partner. Even if he's bad, he's still your teammate. Look for timing/head height/tracking issues and maybe tell him between innings what you see. But ffs don't just stand there while he gets raked across the coals. We've all had those horseSH*# games. If he's off, the complaining will only be compounded by your lack of teamwork. And his zone will deteriorate even further. Don't just be a partner, be the partner YOU would want to work with.

 

That's just it.  If the coaches are complaining about my zone I don't want my partner to intervene.  I want to handle it.  And I'm talking about comments directed at me or chirps from the dugout about my zone.  So being the "partner YOU would want to work with" would be to keep my mouth shut.  All umpires have different thresholds. Mine may be less and therefore I don't want to infringe on my partner's threshold.  I work a lot of games with umpires that I've never met before.  If it is clearly a less experienced umpire that is probably looking for the help then I'm more likely to step in.  But if it is not evident then I'm reluctant to for fear of undermining his authority.an experienced partner will shut this SH*# down before you have to step in. I'm talking about the "Im not going to war" because my partner sucks bit.

[bluejerred]

I don't know...  Maybe I got involved too much with throwing the AC out but I was just tired of dealing with it.  Throughout the game, they left me alone but they were ridiculously obnoxious and it was to the point where the other team was complaining about the outbursts, despite them being in the lead - This was a 12U game after all.  When the complaints started to come my way at the end, despite my warnings, part of me was concerned that I was going to be seen as a pushover as well.  I'll say this, I had no issues with coaches for the rest of my games that day after my ejection. 

 

Normally, the PU gets scorecards signed at the end of the game but I did it because nothing good was going to come of my partner talking to anyone on the losing team.  The HC wasn't too upset at me tossing the AC, he understood.  He even told me that him and his coaches have been thrown out of games plenty of times and that he was trying to get thrown out of the game himself.  I was a little confused why someone would try to get thrown out of a 12U game but then again, I don't get worked up too easily.

 

If I was wrong, then I can handle it coming from you guys.  My concerns at the time lied with the fact that I didn't want to project weakness when they started up with me and the fact the 12U girls were even starting to get chippy.  I'll say this, it all stopped when I chucked the AC and the pitching coach that took his place bit his tongue around me and my partner for that matter.

[ricka56]

You don't need to lie and say your partner's KZ is fine, but you do need to back him up. When they start to whining about my partner to me (finally...what took you so long), they get a stern, "knock it off"!  Now if they Persist with their whining at me, then they get what they get. 

 

If my partner thinks that I undermined his authority, then he is free to discuss it with me after the game. But if an umpire is too timid to shutdown abusive coaches, I doubt he'd have a problem with my EJ'g them.

[umpire_scott]

You don't need to lie and say your partner's KZ is fine, but you do need to back him up. When they start to whining about my partner to me (finally...what took you so long), they get a stern, "knock it off"!  Now if they Persist with their whining at me, then they get what they get. 

 

If my partner thinks that I undermined his authority, then he is free to discuss it with me after the game. But if an umpire is too timid to shutdown abusive coaches, I doubt he'd have a problem with my EJ'g them.

 

Let me be clear in that I have no problem ejecting them if they complain to me about my partner's strike zone. The comment is said to me and so I have full jurisdiction in my mind to send him packing after I tell him to can it.  I'm more talking about games I've had where I've heard chirping from the dugout or direct questioning of calls (the infamous "call it both ways") and my partner has chose to completely ignore them, where in the same situation I would have put a stop to it. If I step in and put a stop to it I could see my partner feeling as if I overstepped my bounds.

 

I think a lot of this stems from me being new to the area and it seems like I am seldom paired with the same partner twice.  So I end up working with a lot of guys that I've never worked with before and don't know their habits and so forth.

[treydawgmt]

You don't need to lie and say your partner's KZ is fine, but you do need to back him up. When they start to whining about my partner to me (finally...what took you so long), they get a stern, "knock it off"! Now if they Persist with their whining at me, then they get what they get.

If my partner thinks that I undermined his authority, then he is free to discuss it with me after the game. But if an umpire is too timid to shutdown abusive coaches, I doubt he'd have a problem with my EJ'g them.

Let me be clear in that I have no problem ejecting them if they complain to me about my partner's strike zone. The comment is said to me and so I have full jurisdiction in my mind to send him packing after I tell him to can it. I'm more talking about games I've had where I've heard chirping from the dugout or direct questioning of calls (the infamous "call it both ways") and my partner has chose to completely ignore them, where in the same situation I would have put a stop to it. If I step in and put a stop to it I could see my partner feeling as if I overstepped my bounds.

I think a lot of this stems from me being new to the area and it seems like I am seldom paired with the same partner twice. So I end up working with a lot of guys that I've never worked with before and don't know their habits and so forth.

If they are complaining about my partner I stay out. Unless it's so ridiculous he is swearing non stop and it's a 12U game and everyone can hear it AND my partner is doing nothing to try to stop it, I won't get involved. However, that same coach who I thought my partner should have ejected and didn't has the shortest leash ever.

I've mentioned this situation before here, but I had a BU who the AC and HC were being on big time. He should have dumped one or both in the first few innings. Not a word was said about or to me, however. Like the fifth inning coach from dugout says "That's three YOU GUYS have cost us." Gone without even a warning. Now he implicated both of us, even though it was my partners call. I never stepped on my partners toes though.

[immaculate1976]

 

I agree with maven if I have a strong partner I dont have to say much cause good umpires have good zones so this does not happen and if it does the coach usually is gone quick. If it is a young umpire I will tell the coach to knock it off cause I want to protect my young ump. The worst thing is when you get a ump with a zone that is just horrible. I will never sell my partner out but at the same time I am not going to war for a umpire that seems to not care enough about his job to learn the zone.

I fully understand your thoughts. But I won't allow coaches to attack my partner, regardless of his zone. The time to deal with training and teaching is OFF the field. But, while we're a crew, we're a team. Ppl won't differentiate one ump from another most of the time. You're "the umps" or "those umps." The only friend you have on the field is your partner. Even if he's bad, he's still your teammate. Look for timing/head height/tracking issues and maybe tell him between innings what you see. But ffs don't just stand there while he gets raked across the coals. We've all had those horseSH*# games. If he's off, the complaining will only be compounded by your lack of teamwork. And his zone will deteriorate even further. Don't just be a partner, be the partner YOU would want to work with.

 

 

I get what you are saying about being a team. However if my partner is A) willing to put up with coaches jumping his a$$ all game and B) too lazy to work on his zone then he deserves to get lit up by a coach. If I jump in and save him he will not learn and he will expect his next partner to do the same. How do you think it will go if I tell the PU his zone is bad? he is going to think I am putting him down and he will get an attitude. If the coach decides to bring the word you guys or these umps into the conversation I have no problem getting involved and showing him the door. 

[ricka56]

 

 

I agree with maven if I have a strong partner I dont have to say much cause good umpires have good zones so this does not happen and if it does the coach usually is gone quick. If it is a young umpire I will tell the coach to knock it off cause I want to protect my young ump. The worst thing is when you get a ump with a zone that is just horrible. I will never sell my partner out but at the same time I am not going to war for a umpire that seems to not care enough about his job to learn the zone.

I fully understand your thoughts. But I won't allow coaches to attack my partner, regardless of his zone. The time to deal with training and teaching is OFF the field. But, while we're a crew, we're a team. Ppl won't differentiate one ump from another most of the time. You're "the umps" or "those umps." The only friend you have on the field is your partner. Even if he's bad, he's still your teammate. Look for timing/head height/tracking issues and maybe tell him between innings what you see. But ffs don't just stand there while he gets raked across the coals. We've all had those horseSH*# games. If he's off, the complaining will only be compounded by your lack of teamwork. And his zone will deteriorate even further. Don't just be a partner, be the partner YOU would want to work with.

 

 

I get what you are saying about being a team. However if my partner is A) willing to put up with coaches jumping his a$$ all game and B) too lazy to work on his zone then he deserves to get lit up by a coach. If I jump in and save him he will not learn and he will expect his next partner to do the same. How do you think it will go if I tell the PU his zone is bad? he is going to think I am putting him down and he will get an attitude. If the coach decides to bring the word you guys or these umps into the conversation I have no problem getting involved and showing him the door. 

 

The OP question had to do with how do you handle coaches that complain to you about your partner's KZ. Your responses have been about what you don't do (not going to save the partner that won't help himself). OK, fine, so what do you do ? What do you say to the coach ? nothing/ignore ? "don't talk to me, its not my problem" ? If you are letting your partner just twist in the wind, then you're not backing your partner (right or wrong, always back your partner). If they're talking to you, Do something ! Let them know that at least one of you aren't going to put up with their mis-behavior. It doesn't cost you anything, you aren't bailing anybody out, to tell them to knock it off.

[treydawgmt]

 

 

 

I agree with maven if I have a strong partner I dont have to say much cause good umpires have good zones so this does not happen and if it does the coach usually is gone quick. If it is a young umpire I will tell the coach to knock it off cause I want to protect my young ump. The worst thing is when you get a ump with a zone that is just horrible. I will never sell my partner out but at the same time I am not going to war for a umpire that seems to not care enough about his job to learn the zone.

I fully understand your thoughts. But I won't allow coaches to attack my partner, regardless of his zone. The time to deal with training and teaching is OFF the field. But, while we're a crew, we're a team. Ppl won't differentiate one ump from another most of the time. You're "the umps" or "those umps." The only friend you have on the field is your partner. Even if he's bad, he's still your teammate. Look for timing/head height/tracking issues and maybe tell him between innings what you see. But ffs don't just stand there while he gets raked across the coals. We've all had those horseSH*# games. If he's off, the complaining will only be compounded by your lack of teamwork. And his zone will deteriorate even further. Don't just be a partner, be the partner YOU would want to work with.

 

 

I get what you are saying about being a team. However if my partner is A) willing to put up with coaches jumping his a$$ all game and B) too lazy to work on his zone then he deserves to get lit up by a coach. If I jump in and save him he will not learn and he will expect his next partner to do the same. How do you think it will go if I tell the PU his zone is bad? he is going to think I am putting him down and he will get an attitude. If the coach decides to bring the word you guys or these umps into the conversation I have no problem getting involved and showing him the door. 

 

The OP question had to do with how do you handle coaches that complain to you about your partner's KZ. Your responses have been about what you don't do (not going to save the partner that won't help himself). OK, fine, so what do you do ? What do you say to the coach ? nothing/ignore ? "don't talk to me, its not my problem" ? If you are letting your partner just twist in the wind, then you're not backing your partner (right or wrong, always back your partner). If they're talking to you, Do something ! Let them know that at least one of you aren't going to put up with their mis-behavior. It doesn't cost you anything, you aren't bailing anybody out, to tell them to knock it off.

 

 

If the coach talks to me about my partner's zone (and I've never actually had this happen), I'll ignore once, hope he wasn't actually talking to me.  Second time is a stern "we are NOT discussing this."  If he doesn't get the clue I guess I'd have to dump him.  Like I said though, I've never actually had this happen.  Or maybe I'd say something along the lines of, we sure do have a bad angle down here, don't we.

[immaculate1976]

I have had this happen several times when I am in A position

 

If it is a comment not directed at me

- I ignore the first one

- Next time I say come on coach you know better

- Third time I say coach this will be the last time I tell you

Now all of this depends on if the comment is loud or soft and if it is him venting or a reaction

 

If it is a question about his zone directed toward me

- I say coach I understand your frustration but you know we dont talk about the zone

- If he keeps asking or gets loud I tell him knock it off coach not going to tell you again

 

Now most of the time this is a good coach who is caught up in the moment of the game. He is frustrated and I dont blame him I would be mad too at some of the zones I have seen. I have never had to toss someone for this most of the time if it gets that far they knock it off