Dead Ball Territory

[Guest Fancy Pants]

Level of play is high school varsity.

 

The field is undergoing renovations currently (heavy winter has caused slow progress) and there is currently no fence down the left field line.  There is a grassy knoll and  at the base of the knoll they have put down a line where the fence normally would be.  A kid crushed the ball right down the left field line and it was tailing quick towards the line.  The left fielder catches the ball off the second bounce and his momentum carries him over the line with both feet.  He then does a crow hop back into fair territory and throws the ball to the plate.  At the time of the hit the bases were loaded and 3 runs scored and the batter ended up on third.  

 

As soon as I saw the player leave live ball territory I killed it.  The BR was half way to second when F9 went over the line, so I placed him at 2nd.  R3 scored, R2 scored, and we placed R1 back at third as he was halfway to third.  It is my understanding of the rule that this is a one base award from the time the player leaves live ball territory.  Coach was arguing that the one base award only applies if the ball is caught, but where it was off the bounce it should have been a two base award.  We eventually agreed to disagree and the game continued (next kid up hit a bases clearing double so no big deal).

 

Who was right?   

[BuckeyeMike]

I can't believe I'm going to actually say this, but the coach was right.   It's 1 base if caught in the air, and 2 bases on a bounce from the time the ball goes dead.

[maven]

Treat this as if he threw it out of play. Catch and carry is a one base award. Thrown ball is a 2 base award.

[Rich Ives]

It's not a catch and carry as that refers to catching a ball in flight and the fielder then going out of play. Here there was no catch so that doesn't apply.  Therefore it's like a throw going out of play.  Two bases.

[Guest Fancy Pants]

Well shoot.  

 

So followup question.  I have the same coach again today.  Do I tell him that he was correct and sorry or nope?

[elares]

Was the ball in live ball territory when it was touched by the fielder, then the fielder moved into DBT with the ball in his possession?

[Rich Ives]

Was the ball in live ball territory when it was touched by the fielder, then the fielder moved into DBT with the ball in his possession?

 

Did you read the OP?  "The left fielder catches the ball off the second bounce and his momentum carries him over the line with both feet."

 

And what are you getting at?

[grayhawk]

Well shoot.  

 

So followup question.  I have the same coach again today.  Do I tell him that he was correct and sorry or nope?

 

That's a personal thing.  If it was me, I would seek him out before the game while I am still in street clothes (I do this every game in the HS regular season to let them know I have arrived and to fill out any vouchers/paperwork anyway) and tell him that you researched the rule and that he was correct.  It will show him a couple of things:

 

1.  That you are a conscientious umpire who takes pride in knowing the rules.

2.  That you are human and willing to admit when you are wrong.

 

I think he gains respect for you if you approach him in the right way.  JMHO.

[JaxRolo]

Well shoot.

So followup question. I have the same coach again today. Do I tell him that he was correct and sorry or nope?

No

[Rich Ives]

 

Well shoot.

So followup question. I have the same coach again today. Do I tell him that he was correct and sorry or nope?

No

 

 

So if the same play happens and it's called correctly this time the coach is going to think you're a complete Bozo  (I do understand coach-think).

[JaxRolo]

Well shoot.

So followup question. I have the same coach again today. Do I tell him that he was correct and sorry or nope?

No

So if the same play happens and it's called correctly this time the coach is going to think you're a complete Bozo (I do understand coach-think).

We are always told once a game is over it's over. Do not bring up plays from previous games. Don't relive the past. Move on.

[Mike Prince]

Well shoot.

So followup question. I have the same coach again today. Do I tell him that he was correct and sorry or nope?

No

So if the same play happens and it's called correctly this time the coach is going to think you're a complete Bozo (I do understand coach-think).

We are always told once a game is over it's over. Do not bring up plays from previous games. Don't relive the past. Move on.

Just curious what you would tell the coach the next night during the game when you make the opposite call on the same play? This wouldn't be reliving the past.

Sent using Tapatalk

[JaxRolo]

Just make the right call. If he asks tell him you're making the right call today. Keep it short.

[JaxRolo]

I don't ask a coach why when down by a couple runs in the last inning bases loaded 2 out he brought in the worst batter to pinch hit and struck out.

[scrounge]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with mentioning "hey, I looked it up and you were right". But no need to apologize or say sorry.

[Rich Ives]

I don't ask a coach why when down by a couple runs in the last inning bases loaded 2 out he brought in the worst batter to pinch hit and struck out.

 

The press asks.

[SoCal Lurker]

The more likley it is to repeat, the more risk you take by not letting him know.  (And ya know what, he might have gone home and looked it up, too.)  Best case is to not be wrong in the first place.  But I think you get real credibility by letting him know you not only care enough to check, but you have enough confidence to let him know that you made a mistake.  (Note:  if the mgr is a screaming $%$%#$, I wouldn't go there, but that's a different discussion.)

[maven]

 

I don't ask a coach why when down by a couple runs in the last inning bases loaded 2 out he brought in the worst batter to pinch hit and struck out.

 

The press asks.

 

 

At Jax's games? What, the IP Daily?

[Just-Call-It]

Great thread (for the most part). Very interesting scenario.

 

At first read, I immediately thought it would be treated as a 2 base award from 'time of pitch' since a fair batted ball went out of play, being that this is different than a caught foul ball (catch and carry). IMO that would be the most reasonable ruling, but I guess the 'time of infraction' aspect could be to prevent a defender from intentionally entering dead ball territory in that situation so to limit the play to a ground rule double and save a run... but that over all others seems to give far to much strategic credit to 99.9999% of all players.

 

To me, the 'time of infraction' aspect is more suited to a thrown ball by a fielder - so, my question now is, what is the reference to this in case study or rules? I'd just like to read the rule directly.

 

Thanks.

[BuckeyeMike]

I can't find it in the actual FED rule book, especially in the base running awards table, where you would think it should be; I got "time of infraction" from a meshing of the FED rule book and the BRD:

 

Fed rule 8-3.5a: if award is the penalty for an infraction.......the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.

 

BRD:

Case 28, Note 27: "If the defensive player fields a fair ball on the bounce and then steps with both feet into DBT - an unlikely but not impossible occurrence - the award would be two bases from the time the ball goes dead.  (See play 33-29)

 

Play 33-29:

If any ball - other than a pitch, a throw by the pitcher from the pitcher's plate, or a batted ball caught in flight - is intentionally thrown, carried, or deflected into DBT, the ball is dead.   The umpire awards each runner two bases measured from TOT or deflection.

[maven]

@BuckeyeMike: since this is an interpretation rather than a rule per se, you'd have to find it in the case book rather than the rule book.

 

You could also deduce it from a general principle: every live ball in play is either a pitched ball, a batted ball, or a thrown ball. The awards for ball out of play depend on which status the ball has. The problem here is that the ball was held by a fielder as it left play, and so it did not properly qualify as any of these.

 

So you have to pick the one that is closest: and that's why we treat this case as if the fielder threw the ball out of play.

[SteveJ]

 

Well shoot.  

 

So followup question.  I have the same coach again today.  Do I tell him that he was correct and sorry or nope?

 

That's a personal thing.  If it was me, I would seek him out before the game while I am still in street clothes (I do this every game in the HS regular season to let them know I have arrived and to fill out any vouchers/paperwork anyway) and tell him that you researched the rule and that he was correct.  It will show him a couple of things:

 

1.  That you are a conscientious umpire who takes pride in knowing the rules.

2.  That you are human and willing to admit when you are wrong.

 

I think he gains respect for you if you approach him in the right way.  JMHO.

 

I agree