Mechanics on a game ender

[kylejt]

LL Majors. Bottom of the sixth, one out, home team down by one, R2 and R3.

 

Ground ball to F6, and he comes home with it. The throw is off target, and R3 crosses the plate. The V manager hollers to his catcher that F3 missed the plate, and to tag him. As that circus evolves, R2 heads to the dish. Now, F2 stops his tag attempt on the R3, and fails on his tag play at the dish on F2. Two runs cross the plate, to effectively end the game. But the manager still wants his F2 to tag R2.

 

Yeah, I was the plate umpire.

 

What would you have done?

[maven]

1. Rule on whether R3 touched the plate immediately. I'd guess, given your description, that he did not, but if he did, signal safe. If he did not, the correct mechanic for no touch/no tag at HP is no signal.

 

2. If R3 did not touch the plate, then he is liable to be called out on appeal. Once R2 scores, R3 may no longer legally return to touch the plate. F2 can appeal by touching the plate and stating which runner failed to touch.

 

3. Rule on the appeal. If R3 is out, then R2's run counts, the game is tied, there are 2 outs, and the game continues. If not, then both runs score, there is 1 out, and the game continues (unless it's a 6-inning game, in which case, the game is over).

[johnnyg08]

You're only going to get one more out even if he does tag him.  Game over.  (Must be a tag play though…unless the runner has abandoned his effort to touch home plate)….which he can't do anyway since trailing runners have now scored. 

 

 

 

Or just read what maven wrote.

 

[umpstu]

You're only going to get one more out even if he does tag him.  Game over.  (Must be a tag play though…unless the runner has abandoned his effort to touch home plate)….which he can't do anyway since trailing runners have now scored. 

 

 

 

Or just read what maven wrote.

 

Now there are two outs

[kylejt]

If R3 was indeed out, the game would have been tied by R2s run.

 

I didn't signal R3 as being safe, when he crossed, as there was no play being made on him.

 

After R2 scored, the catcher went to tag R3. Here's where I think I went wrong:

 

I signaled safe on that attempt (I knew they couldn't make a tag appeal after R3 had scored), with a "Nope!" verbal. The manager came out and asked me if R2 had touched the plate. That's when I knew I was in a bind. I knew I couldn't say he didn't, as that would have been giving him an advantage. I simply told him the he crossed the plate. He then asked if I could get help from my partner (who by then was standing next to me, getting ready to exit the field). "Matt, did you see him miss?". "No".

 

Then I waited until the defense had all left fair territory, and walked off with my partner.

 

I just figure there must have been a better why to handle it.

[maven]

I didn't signal R3 as being safe, when he crossed, as there was no play being made on him.

 

I think this is the root of the problem. Once F6 throws home, the defense has committed to playing on R3. Signal safe and none of the rest of it happens. Don't worry that the ball got past F2: they're still playing on R3.

 

I suspect that the coach read your non-call as a no touch/no tag ruling, and instructed his players accordingly.

[afaber12]

If R3 was indeed out, the game would have been tied by R2s run.

 

I didn't signal R3 as being safe, when he crossed, as there was no play being made on him.

 

After R2 scored, the catcher went to tag R3. Here's where I think I went wrong:

 

I signaled safe on that attempt (I knew they couldn't make a tag appeal after R3 had scored), with a "Nope!" verbal. The manager came out and asked me if R2 had touched the plate. That's when I knew I was in a bind. I knew I couldn't say he didn't, as that would have been giving him an advantage. I simply told him the he crossed the plate. He then asked if I could get help from my partner (who by then was standing next to me, getting ready to exit the field). "Matt, did you see him miss?". "No".

 

Then I waited until the defense had all left fair territory, and walked off with my partner.

 

I just figure there must have been a better why to handle it.

 

Are you saying that you had R3 missing the plate?

[johnnyg08]

 

Now there are two outs

I think my point was that since it wasn't the 3rd out it's a time play anyway. So two runs are going to score no matter what.

[Jimurray]

If R3 was indeed out, the game would have been tied by R2s run.

I didn't signal R3 as being safe, when he crossed, as there was no play being made on him.

After R2 scored, the catcher went to tag R3. Here's where I think I went wrong:

I signaled safe on that attempt (I knew they couldn't make a tag appeal after R3 had scored), with a "Nope!" verbal. The manager came out and asked me if R2 had touched the plate. That's when I knew I was in a bind. I knew I couldn't say he didn't, as that would have been giving him an advantage. I simply told him the he crossed the plate. He then asked if I could get help from my partner (who by then was standing next to me, getting ready to exit the field). "Matt, did you see him miss?". "No".

Then I waited until the defense had all left fair territory, and walked off with my partner.

I just figure there must have been a better why to handle it.

Why was the tag of R2 not a proper appeal? Edited to change R3 to R2.

[maven]

Why was the tag of R2 not a proper appeal? Edited to change R3 to R2.

If I understand the situation, both runners in fact touched HP.

[Jimurray]

If R3 was indeed out, the game would have been tied by R2s run.

I didn't signal R3 as being safe, when he crossed, as there was no play being made on him.

After R2 scored, the catcher went to tag R3. Here's where I think I went wrong:

I signaled safe on that attempt (I knew they couldn't make a tag appeal after R3 had scored), with a "Nope!" verbal. The manager came out and asked me if R2 had touched the plate. That's when I knew I was in a bind. I knew I couldn't say he didn't, as that would have been giving him an advantage. I simply told him the he crossed the plate. He then asked if I could get help from my partner (who by then was standing next to me, getting ready to exit the field). "Matt, did you see him miss?". "No".

Then I waited until the defense had all left fair territory, and walked off with my partner.

I just figure there must have been a better why to handle it.

Why was the tag of R2 not a proper appeal? Edited to change R3 to R2.

I've confused enough runners and you all with the runner designations. Let's go back to this:

"I signaled safe on that attempt (I knew they couldn't make a tag appeal after R3 had scored),"

Why can't they appeal R3 with a live ball appeal?

[kylejt]

I guess here's my question:

 

Since R2 had already hit the plate, can the appeal still be made by tagging R3, and stating he missed the plate? Or, is that missed plate appeal need to made at the dish?

 

What happened was that the catcher, after R2 touched the plate, started to chase R3, who was near the dugout. That's when I put a stop to things. Perhaps I was wrong (it happens), but I assumed that once a trailing runner scores, all appeals on the previous runner need to be made at the plate.

[grayhawk]

I guess here's my question:

Since R2 had already hit the plate, can the appeal still be made by tagging R3, and stating he missed the plate? Or, is that missed plate appeal need to made at the dish?

What happened was that the catcher, after R2 touched the plate, started to chase R3, who was near the dugout. That's when I put a stop to things. Perhaps I was wrong (it happens), but I assumed that once a trailing runner scores, all appeals on the previous runner need to be made at the plate.

No, they can still tag him if he hasn't entered the dugout. The key is that they don't HAVE to tag him, like if he was still near the plate. That rule is there so a circus doesn't develop (assuming F2 and/or his coach has a clue). The only thing R2 scoring changes is that R3 cannot legally touch assuming he missed it.

I'm still unclear, did R3 miss the plate when he passed it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[noumpere]

The manager came out and asked me if R2 had touched the plate. That's when I knew I was in a bind. I knew I couldn't say he didn't, as that would have been giving him an advantage.

Johh, Im not allowed to answer that and youll have to appeal to find out.

 

Oh, and they can still appeal R3 and can do it by making it obvious why they are touching the plate.

[ricka56]

 

Johh, Im not allowed to answer that and youll have to appeal to find out.

 

Appeals are so rare, many professional coaches aren't sure how to do them correctly. Coach obviously wants to appeal a missed base. We don't have to be pr*cks about how they are accomplished. Droping the above hint is a just good game management move.

[grayhawk]

 

 

Johh, Im not allowed to answer that and youll have to appeal to find out.

 

Appeals are so rare, many professional coaches aren't sure how to do them correctly. Coach obviously wants to appeal a missed base. We don't have to be pr*cks about how they are accomplished. Droping the above hint is a just good game management move.

 

 

Agreed.  We've all probably seen the LL videos where appeals were botched by the team/coach, but the umpires made things worse by stonewalling, giving the silent treatment, etc.

[DVA7130]

If asked a question like that, I'll just say that's not a proper appeal.

[maven]

If asked a question like that, I'll just say that's not a proper appeal.

 

And that's fine: in codes that disallow verbal appeals, a proper live-ball appeal is the only way to earn a ruling regarding a touch of HP. When coach asks whether a runner touched, you should not answer.

 

But I agree with @grayhawk that some umpires screw up their games in these situations by not responding. When coach asks you a legitimate question (and not all are legitimate), you should definitely respond to his question, even if the response is, "Coach, I can't answer that question, you'll need to appeal."

 

Now, if he doesn't know what to do next, that's his problem. And some coaches infer from that response that the appeal will be successful, but that's a bad inference.

 

I love FED appeals. Coach says, "he missed the plate!" I say, "Time! What did you say?" Coach: "He missed the plate!" Me: "Yes he did! He's out!."

 

Easy.

[ricka56]

"Coach, I can't answer that question, you'll need to appeal."

 

... And some coaches infer from that response that the appeal will be successful, but that's a bad inference.

 

I know that we're not supposed to say, but if R3 touched HP, and DHC comes out and asks, I'll nod (yes, he touched HP). If he touched HP and I refuse to answer and the defense goes through the motion of a (to be denied) appeal, best case, DHC thinks I'm F'g with him and makes life miserable for me the remainder of the game. Worse case, they screw up the (to be denied) appeal and other runners advance..now I really have hell to pay. I know that mess-up would be their fault, but I have made a game management decision to expeditite the process.

[Platejob29]

It's better just to tell the coach what you have when he asks. If you don't tell him what you have because you don't want to give him an advantage than you are in fact putting him at a disadvantage because he may take your silence or you dodging answer as a denied appeal. Where as if you just answer with what you have when he asks you aren't in any way giving him any advantage. Just because he doesn't know how to ask or how to appeal doesn't mean you should deny him if you know exactly what he is asking. This all of course is depending on the level. At the college or high school levels or above you are going to have to make them be more specific but in youth ball you aren't dealing with professional coaches who know what they are doing.

[noumpere]

 

"Coach, I can't answer that question, you'll need to appeal."

 

... And some coaches infer from that response that the appeal will be successful, but that's a bad inference.

 

I know that we're not supposed to say, but if R3 touched HP, and DHC comes out and asks, I'll nod (yes, he touched HP). If he touched HP and I refuse to answer and the defense goes through the motion of a (to be denied) appeal, best case, DHC thinks I'm F'g with him and makes life miserable for me the remainder of the game. Worse case, they screw up the (to be denied) appeal and other runners advance..now I really have hell to pay. I know that mess-up would be their fault, but I have made a game management decision to expeditite the process.

 

Then your taking an opportunity away from the offense and if I was the other coach Id be mad as heck about it.

 

Now if there are no runners then maybe you can get away with it.