21 replies to this topic

[Lefty]

Had this situation come up today. I was the base umpire for the game. There were
runners on first and third. I was in the B position. The batter hits a very slow roller
down the third base line. The ball goes into foul territory and passes the third baseman.
The runner from third is behind the fielder closer to third base. Once the ball is past the
third baseman it takes a strange bounce and hits the runner who had moved into fair
territory to avoid being hit by the foul ball. My partner called the runner from third out
and a dead ball. He came to me for help and I told him if the runner was in foul territory
it would be a foul ball and if he was in fair territory he would be out. However, something
that i did not think about was that the ball had passed the fielder and hit the runner who
was standing right behind him. Now that I think about it maybe the ball should have been
left in play because the third baseman had a chance to field the ball and did not.

An opinions.

Lefty

[Jocko]

If no other fielder had a play on the ball, it's live and he's not out.

[umpcoachfather]

Trout is correct.

[Jocko]

Trout is correct.

I hear that alot

[JaxRolo]

Trout is correct.

I hear that alot

You are correct in your answer but I think you cheated!

[Jocko]

Trout is correct.

I hear that alot

You are correct in your answer but I think you cheated!

I did. I called my buddy Rainman and asked him what the answer was

[MPLSMatt]

The real question, how do you rule if your partner calls it dead and comes to you, like in the OP? You know that it shouldn't be an out but now he's killed the play.

[Rich Ives]

How close behind the fielder was the runner? 5 feet - play the bounce. 20 feet - that's an out.

The exemption is for a runner "immediately behind" the fielder. Reason: no time to avoid.

5.09(f ) 7.09(k )

[UmpTTS43]

OBR runner out dead ball. FED NCAA runner not out ball stays live

[Jocko]

Can't unring the bell. Once it's dead, it's dead. You can get together on the out and get THAT right, but too late killing it.

[Dragon29]

OBR runner out dead ball.

Kind of a snap judgment w/o seeing how close R3 & F5 may have been. I don't know that I subscribe strictly to Rich's 5'/20' comparison, but that's certainly the right idea.

Curious how you came to that conclusion - ?

[Dragon29]

The real question, how do you rule if your partner calls it dead and comes to you, like in the OP? You know that it shouldn't be an out but now he's killed the play.

Not a perfect solution but, if your partner does decide to oveturn his initial 'Out' call based upon your additional information, I would think you would return all runners to their TOP bases and put the BR back in the box w/the previous count.

I know there are no 'do-overs' in baseball, but in this case (where the problem was caused by an umpire's lack of rules knowledge) I think this is probably the way to go.

Oh - and your partner's gonna need a cold one to wash down that sh!t sandwich the DM just handed him.

[24sdad]

Fixing it...Assuming when R3 was hit no other fielder had a play on the ball, I think I would be more inclined to treat it like a batted ball hitting an umpire before it passed an infielder. Leave R3 at third, advance R1 to second and BR to first. Batter did in fact hit a fair ball, past F5, that was incorrectly killed by PU.

Lefty - did your partner come to you on his own or was this after speaking to one of the (probably offensive) managers? From your OP, I am guessing you left it as an out...did anyone argue?

[Matt]

Not a perfect solution but, if your partner does decide to oveturn his initial 'Out' call based upon your additional information, I would think you would return all runners to their TOP bases and put the BR back in the box w/the previous count.

I know there are no 'do-overs' in baseball, but in this case (where the problem was caused by an umpire's lack of rules knowledge) I think this is probably the way to go.

No. You can NEVER have a do-over in eating a call.

[Jocko]

Fixing it...Assuming when R3 was hit no other fielder had a play on the ball, I think I would be more inclined to treat it like a batted ball hitting an umpire before it passed an infielder. Leave R3 at third, advance R1 to second and BR to first. Batter did in fact hit a fair ball, past F5, that was incorrectly killed by PU.

I think I agree. BR awarded a single, runners advance if forced

[Dragon29]

OK - Retraction.

I like 24sdad's solution better than the one I posted.

[Lefty]

Sorry for the slow reply.  The runner in this situation was right behind
the fielder,  In fact he was so close I did not see the ball hit him.  When
my partner came over to see me after he called the runner out.  He told me
the ball had hit the runner,  He wanted my opinion on the play.  I  seem to
remember  yelling from both managers.  One wanted an out and the
other a foul ball I think.

  Lefty

[mstaylor]

How close behind the fielder was the runner? 5 feet - play the bounce. 20 feet - that's an out.

The exemption is for a runner "immediately behind" the fielder. Reason: no time to avoid.

5.09(f ) 7.09(k )

I have never heard of a distance exception. It is that way because the fielder has made their attempt so there is no play to interfere with. If ability to avoid was a consideration then the second fielder having a shot wouldn't be there. Simply if the runner deeper than the fielder and behind him, not twenty feet away, and another fielder doesn't have a play then it is a live ball. Same rule cites as Rich.

[Rich Ives]

How close behind the fielder was the runner? 5 feet - play the bounce. 20 feet - that's an out.

The exemption is for a runner "immediately behind" the fielder. Reason: no time to avoid.

5.09(f ) 7.09(k )

I have never heard of a distance exception. It is that way because the fielder has made their attempt so there is no play to interfere with. If ability to avoid was a consideration then the second fielder having a shot wouldn't be there. Simply if the runner deeper than the fielder and behind him, not twenty feet away, and another fielder doesn't have a play then it is a live ball. Same rule cites as Rich.

Explain "immediatly back". It's in both rules.

20' may not be the real distance but the basic concept is that if the runner should have a reasonable expectation that a fielder may make a play then he's exempt. Once the ball is some distance past the fielder he no longer has that excuse as he now has time to avoid the ball.

[mstaylor]

Directly behind means inline or close, no distance required. If he is deeper than the F5 and F6 but the ball is between them, he is out because he wasn't behind them.