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Ball Hits Bat Twice


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#1 Astrosdawg07

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:27 PM

Last night the batter bunted the ball straight into the plate and rolls fair and the BR is retired. However in between innings the DC comes up to me(BU) and asked me if I saw it off the bat twice (I did not, but he claims it did while in the box with bat still in hand). Which got me to thinking I know the rule book says that if the ball hits the bat twice it is a dead ball out; however I got to wondering is this maybe an interpretation rule ie: if unintentional let it go etc. And the only reason I started thinking about this because if the bat is thrown and the ball makes contact with it in fair, as long as the bat wasn't thrown at the ball intentionally its a live ball. My partner claimed it would be foul ball since the batter was still in possession of the bat and was still in the box had this happened.

Like I said though neither one of us saw it hit the bat twice.


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#2 JaxRolo

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:48 PM

Last night the batter bunted the ball straight into the plate and rolls fair and the BR is retired. However in between innings the DC comes up to me(BU) and asked me if I saw it off the bat twice (I did not, but he claims it did while in the box with bat still in hand). Which got me to thinking I know the rule book says that if the ball hits the bat twice it is a dead ball out; however I got to wondering is this maybe an interpretation rule ie: if unintentional let it go etc. And the only reason I started thinking about this because if the bat is thrown and the ball makes contact with it in fair, as long as the bat wasn't thrown at the ball intentionally its a live ball. My partner claimed it would be foul ball since the batter was still in possession of the bat and was still in the box had this happened.

Like I said though neither one of us saw it hit the bat twice.


In the Box its foul.

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#3 grayhawk

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:08 PM

Last night the batter bunted the ball straight into the plate and rolls fair and the BR is retired. However in between innings the DC comes up to me(BU) and asked me if I saw it off the bat twice (I did not, but he claims it did while in the box with bat still in hand). Which got me to thinking I know the rule book says that if the ball hits the bat twice it is a dead ball out; however I got to wondering is this maybe an interpretation rule ie: if unintentional let it go etc. And the only reason I started thinking about this because if the bat is thrown and the ball makes contact with it in fair, as long as the bat wasn't thrown at the ball intentionally its a live ball. My partner claimed it would be foul ball since the batter was still in possession of the bat and was still in the box had this happened.

Like I said though neither one of us saw it hit the bat twice.


That's not what the rules say. Here is the appropriate reference:

6.05 A batter is out when—

(h) After hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. The ball is dead and no runners may advance. If the batter-runner drops his bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball is alive and in play. If the batter is in a legal position in the batter’s box, see Rule 6.03, and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, a batted ball that strikes the batter or his bat shall be ruled a foul ball;

My comment: So the ball can hit the bat twice (as long as it wasn't intentional), but the bat cannot hit the ball twice. If BR hits the ball in fair territory and he drops or throws the bat and it hits the ball, then the ball is dead and BR is out. If BR hits the ball into fair territory and drops the bat, and then the ball rolls into the bat, then you have a live ball unless, in the umpire's judgement, BR did it intentionally.

Jax covered what happens when BR is still in the box.

#4 JaxRolo

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:27 PM

That's not what the rules say. Here is the appropriate reference:

6.05 A batter is out when—

(h) After hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. The ball is dead and no runners may advance. If the batter-runner drops his bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball is alive and in play. If the batter is in a legal position in the batter’s box, see Rule 6.03, and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, a batted ball that strikes the batter or his bat shall be ruled a foul ball;

My comment: So the ball can hit the bat twice (as long as it wasn't intentional), but the bat cannot hit the ball twice. If BR hits the ball in fair territory and he drops or throws the bat and it hits the ball, then the ball is dead and BR is out. If BR hits the ball into fair territory and drops the bat, and then the ball rolls into the bat, then you have a live ball unless, in the umpire's judgement, BR did it intentionally.

Jax covered what happens when BR is still in the box.


I believe in the OP the coach said the batter was in the box

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#5 grayhawk

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:57 PM

I believe in the OP the coach said the batter was in the box


He did. I was responding to the other stuff.

#6 Astrosdawg07

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:08 PM

In the Box its foul.



That makes sense but do you have a cite or even better a case book to go with it?

#7 Rich Ives

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 05:22 PM

That makes sense but do you have a cite or even better a case book to go with it?


Why is the case book better than the basic rule?

OBR 6.05(h)

If the batter is in a legal position in the batter’s box, see Rule 6.03, and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, a batted ball that strikes the batter or his bat shall be ruled a foul ball;


NCAA Rule 7

SECTION 7. A foul ball is a legally batted ball that:

e. Hits the batter in the batter’s box, or hits the dirt or home plate and then
hits the batter or the bat, which is in the hand or hands of the batter,
while in the batter’s box;

Edited by Rich Ives, 09 November 2010 - 05:27 PM.


#8 Jimurray

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 05:41 PM

Since you are TASO the FED rule is 8-4-1d.2. The rule is straightfoward but anyway, 2 cases are 8.4.1 Sit A and Sit B. Been in the FED rule book quite a while.

The OBR wording regarding foul when in the box was added recently to reinforce the unwritten interp that existed.

#9 Astrosdawg07

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:39 PM

Why is the case book better than the basic rule.


Rich I just like to have an example/situation to relate it to. As we all know if we read the rule book and use it verbatim we can truly screw the pooch!

#10 Astrosdawg07

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:40 PM

Since you are TASO the FED rule is 8-4-1d.2. The rule is straightfoward but anyway, 2 cases are 8.4.1 Sit A and Sit B. Been in the FED rule book quite a while.

The OBR wording regarding foul when in the box was added recently to reinforce the unwritten interp that existed.


Thanks! I couldn't find anything about "in the box" in PBUC.

#11 guyinaredhat

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:56 PM

I had this same situation in my forfeit game from my earlier post.   in the 2nd inning of a 2-0 game , we have r 3 with 0 outs,. Batter bunts it fair and in front of the plate.  I point it fair when f2 touches it and r3 is hung  up and out by 10 feet.   Immediately after the play the HC coaching from the 1b box, calls time .  He has it "off the bat twice" while he was still in the box. I tell him that I didn't have that.   He wants me to "get help"  Here's where i gave my partner too much credit.  I tell the HC that I didn't have it, and that if my partner had it he would have killed it , but that I would go for help.  So when we get togethermy partner tells me he has it off the bat twice.  I ask him how sure he is and he says he's positive.   SO now I'm getting irritated my partner didn't kill it but this is not the time or place.  SO I now i Have to get ready to eat the  s *** sandwich  my partner just served up when I have to go tell this manager I am going to change my call.     I go to the DT manager and tell him " After getting together with my partner  he gave me additional information.  We have it off the bat twice. I am changing the call to  Foul ball R3.   Now he's going nuts wanting to go back on the field and talk to my partner, and prolonging the game.  Using excellent game management skills I issued him a  stern warning and he sheepishly backed off to the dugout. 

 

 

So kid's whats the moral of the story?



#12 Pops

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:35 AM

I had this same situation in my forfeit game from my earlier post.   in the 2nd inning of a 2-0 game , we have r 3 with 0 outs,. Batter bunts it fair and in front of the plate.  I point it fair when f2 touches it and r3 is hung  up and out by 10 feet.   Immediately after the play the HC coaching from the 1b box, calls time .  He has it "off the bat twice" while he was still in the box. I tell him that I didn't have that.   He wants me to "get help"  Here's where i gave my partner too much credit.  I tell the HC that I didn't have it, and that if my partner had it he would have killed it , but that I would go for help.  So when we get togethermy partner tells me he has it off the bat twice.  I ask him how sure he is and he says he's positive.   SO now I'm getting irritated my partner didn't kill it but this is not the time or place.  SO I now i Have to get ready to eat the  s *** sandwich  my partner just served up when I have to go tell this manager I am going to change my call.     I go to the DT manager and tell him " After getting together with my partner  he gave me additional information.  We have it off the bat twice. I am changing the call to  Foul ball R3.   Now he's going nuts wanting to go back on the field and talk to my partner, and prolonging the game.  Using excellent game management skills I issued him a  stern warning and he sheepishly backed off to the dugout. 

 

 

So kid's whats the moral of the story?

The only mistake you made is when you were talking to the HC..."I tell the HC that I didn't have it, and that if my partner had it he would have killed it , but that I would go for help."  

I wouldn't have mentioned my partner at all and waited until the coach asked me to go to him for help.



#13 noumpere

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:38 AM

The only mistake you made is when you were talking to the HC..."I tell the HC that I didn't have it, and that if my partner had it he would have killed it , but that I would go for help."  

 

I wouldn't have mentioned my partner at all and waited until the coach asked me to go to him for help.

 

The proper mechanic is as was mentioned -- the BU kills it if he sees it.  If he doesn't kill it, there's no need to go to him -- you've already effectively done so.

 

Now, if either the BU or the PU doesn't know or follow the correct mechanic, then all bets are off.



#14 Pops

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:48 AM

 

The only mistake you made is when you were talking to the HC..."I tell the HC that I didn't have it, and that if my partner had it he would have killed it , but that I would go for help."  

 

I wouldn't have mentioned my partner at all and waited until the coach asked me to go to him for help.

 

The proper mechanic is as was mentioned -- the BU kills it if he sees it.  If he doesn't kill it, there's no need to go to him -- you've already effectively done so.

 

Now, if either the BU or the PU doesn't know or follow the correct mechanic, then all bets are off.

 

I agree with your statement about the mechanic.  But we've all worked with partners who are not real sharp, so I would not tell the coach anything about my partner's responsibility. Guyinaredhat did, and it came back to bite him.






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