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Unavoidable contact...In my opinion


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#1 LMSANS

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:16 PM

FED rules

We had a play in the first inning of the N @ S JV game tonight.

I had the plate.

R2 for S, batter gets a hit to left field. R2 is trying to score the throw brings F2 up the 3rd base line about 15 - 20 feet. As he reaches for the ball they collide and both go down. R2 scrambles to touch home. The catcher gets up to recover the ball, which hit me on the foot and bounced to F1 backing up home. In my judgement, the contact was incidental (a train wreck). N coach wants the runner ejected for "Obstruction". I knew what he meant, but did not feel that the contact was avoidable. It was too far up the line for him to slide and since F2 was running towards him, I didn't think he(the runner) had time to react.

N coach immediately threatens to go to his AD because I did not "do anything". BU & I discussed the play, he felt that the runner plowed the catcher. We agreed to disagree and I stuck with my call. We gave no indication that we did not agree.

I would like to hear your reactions/thoughts.

Larry
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#2 UmpJM

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:19 PM

Larry,

As described, it sounds like Obstruction, if anything.

There's no "act of fielding" exclusion in FED - if F2 doesn't have the ball, he's supposed to stay out of the runner's way.

JM
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#3 ukce1861

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:22 PM

I had a similar play in one of my early JV games this season. I think this is one of those touchy situations where there's a lot of room for honest disagreement, and it's an obvious HTBT, but I ruled the same as you.

I'm curious, why did you get with the BU on this play? Just because of the hubbub from the coach? I can see getting with my partner if requested, just to try and calm the coach down and present a united front, but I honestly wouldn't go to him in this situation for any real input.

#4 LMSANS

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:23 PM

Larry,

As described, it sounds like Obstruction, if anything.

There's no "act of fielding" exclusion in FED - if F2 doesn't have the ball, he's supposed to stay out of the runner's way.

JM

That was the way I was leaning, but since R2 touched home & was safe, I let it go and left it as train wreck.

Larry
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#5 24sdad

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:24 PM

Larry, if I understand what happened, R2 was almost to the plate, F2 moved into R2's path to attempt to receive an errant throw and they collide? With a collision at the plate where both participants "go flying," you either have MC or OBS. If I have the scenario correct, I clearly have OBS. F2 did not have the ball, moved into R2's path and pretty much left R2 with nothing to do except collide with F2.
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#6 LMSANS

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:27 PM

I had a similar play in one of my early JV games this season. I think this is one of those touchy situations where there's a lot of room for honest disagreement, and it's an obvious HTBT, but I ruled the same as you.

I'm curious, why did you get with the BU on this play? Just because of the hubbub from the coach? I can see getting with my partner if requested, just to try and calm the coach down and present a united front, but I honestly wouldn't go to him in this situation for any real input.


This is a very intense cross-town rivalry & the N coach is over the TOP. Yeah, I got with BU to calm the coach. It didn't work...I had to shut him down with a "that's enough." We've run across each other before, so he knew that was his warning.

Larry
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#7 mstaylor

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:26 PM

Sounds like you had it correct. It would be obstruction if he was put out but since he made it then obviously there was no obstruction. Unless you have MC then it's nothing.
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#8 JaxRolo

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 04:31 PM


Larry,

As described, it sounds like Obstruction, if anything.

There's no "act of fielding" exclusion in <acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym> - if <acronym title='Catcher'>F2</acronym> doesn't have the ball, he's supposed to stay out of the runner's way.

JM

That was the way I was leaning, but since <acronym title='Base runner at 2B'>R2</acronym> touched home & was safe, I let it go and left it as train wreck.


I didn't see on the OP the runner was safe. That makes a difference!
It's a DDB OBS. Signal it and if the runner is safe the ignore the OBS

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#9 zm1283

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 06:55 PM

You don't have to use the "Delayed Dead Ball" signal that FED uses. If you don't use all FED mechanics the rest of the time, there is no need to use that one when OBS happens. Just point and call it and deal with it accordingly.

#10 JaxRolo

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:13 PM

You don't have to use the "Delayed Dead Ball" signal that FED uses. If you don't use all FED mechanics the rest of the time, there is no need to use that one when OBS happens. Just point and call it and deal with it accordingly.

.
Why not use FED Mechanics. They should be used if it is a FED HS State

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#11 Fittske24

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:30 PM

<acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym> rules

We had a play in the first inning of the N @ S JV game tonight.

I had the plate.

<acronym title='Base runner at 2B'>R2</acronym> for S, batter gets a hit to left field. <acronym title='Base runner at 2B'>R2</acronym> is trying to score the throw brings <acronym title='Catcher'>F2</acronym> up the 3rd base line about 15 - 20 feet. As he reaches for the ball they collide and both go down. <acronym title='Base runner at 2B'>R2</acronym> scrambles to touch home. The catcher gets up to recover the ball, which hit me on the foot and bounced to <acronym title='Pitcher'>F1</acronym> backing up home. In my judgement, the contact was incidental (a train wreck). N coach wants the runner ejected for "Obstruction". I knew what he meant, but did not feel that the contact was avoidable. It was too far up the line for him to slide and since <acronym title='Catcher'>F2</acronym> was running towards him, I didn't think he(the runner) had time to react.

N coach immediately threatens to go to his <acronym title='Athletic Director'>AD</acronym> because I did not "do anything". <acronym title='Base umpire'>BU</acronym> &amp; I discussed the play, he felt that the runner plowed the catcher. We agreed to disagree and I stuck with my call. We gave no indication that we did not agree.

I would like to hear your reactions/thoughts.


Like others have stated, in FED this is either MC or OBS. If you judge it to be OBS, make sure you point and signal obstruction when the collision occurs, then wait to see what happens. If the runner crawls and touches the plate then you have nothing, if the runner gets tagged, then kill the play and award the runner home.

#12 LMSANS

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:14 PM

NJ is very FED. I did signal the obstuction, but didn't say anything as I got wrapped up in the action.

Larry
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#13 zm1283

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 04:09 PM


You don't have to use the "Delayed Dead Ball" signal that FED uses. If you don't use all FED mechanics the rest of the time, there is no need to use that one when OBS happens. Just point and call it and deal with it accordingly.

.
Why not use FED Mechanics. They should be used if it is a FED HS State


If you're going to cover third as the PU on a triple with no runners on or do the rest of the goofy stuff the FED manual says to do, by all means go ahead.

The state I am in uses FED rules, but the mechanics are a mixed bag depending on who you're working with or what area of the state you're in.

#14 UmpJM

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 04:21 PM

...
.
Why not use FED Mechanics. They should be used if it is a FED HS State


JAX,

Essentially, because a lot of FED mechanics are just plain "dumb" - and archaic.

At a pre-season rules meeting earlier this year, one of the association officers was presenting and, at one point, held out his left fist with his arm held parallel to the ground and asked those present what it meant. He got replies of

"Delayed dead ball"

and

"Obstruction".

To which he replied

"No. It means 'I do softball.' ".

JM
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#15 LMSANS

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:34 PM


...
.
Why not use FED Mechanics. They should be used if it is a FED HS State


JAX,

Essentially, because a lot of FED mechanics are just plain "dumb" - and archaic.

At a pre-season rules meeting earlier this year, one of the association officers was presenting and, at one point, held out his left fist with his arm held parallel to the ground and asked those present what it meant. He got replies of

"Delayed dead ball"

and

"Obstruction".

To which he replied

"No. It means 'I do softball.' ".

JM


Or delayed dead ball in NJ. You work the way you are told to by those in charge. You work to change what needs to be changed.

Larry
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#16 Jocko

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 08:11 PM

,So, if I'm reading this correctly, R2 scored from 2b on a basehit and the throw to the plate. BR ends up at 2b presumably on the throw from outfield. Your partner is watching the play at the plate and sees MC. You see nothing and rule nothing. Coach wants "OBS?" Me- "coach, are you SURE you want me to eject someone for OBS on this play? Are you rrreeeeeeeeeelllllyyyyyy sure that's what you want?" He obviously isn't as up on rules as he thinks he is, and so what if he calls the AD? Durn YOU and the AD coach. This is what happened from my pov, and mine is the only one that matters. Call your AD, the gas station owner, 9-1-1, and the Pope while you're at it. Now get back in the dugout/box/concession stand, pressbox, bathroom stall or wherever you came from and let's play ball.
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#17 mstaylor

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 09:09 PM

... . Why not use FED Mechanics. They should be used if it is a FED HS State

JAX, Essentially, because a lot of FED mechanics are just plain "dumb" - and archaic. At a pre-season rules meeting earlier this year, one of the association officers was presenting and, at one point, held out his left fist with his arm held parallel to the ground and asked those present what it meant. He got replies of "Delayed dead ball" and "Obstruction". To which he replied "No. It means 'I do softball.' ". JM

Or delayed dead ball in NJ. You work the way you are told to by those in charge. You work to change what needs to be changed.

Very true, you do what your local says. Now I agree the FED mechanics are horrible and while I am a stickler for calling FED rules for FED games, the mechanics are less important. I actually never knew there was a FED mechanic book until years after I started in HS. We were taught PBUC mechanics because the guy in charge was a pro grad. When I took over I switched to NCAA because many of the TOP guys work college also, so to keep from causing confusion,I used the dsame mechanics.
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#18 noumpere

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:54 AM

Its OBS in HS rules only if the catcher denied complete access to the base just the contact by the errant thow is not enough. And sometimes the umpire further away has a better view of the entire play to rule on malicious contact so I think its alright to get together on this. Finally dont play word games with the coach when he comes out asking for obstruction so that was a good job.

#19 Welpe

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 12:40 PM

just the contact by the errant thow is not enough.


Indeed it is if it impedes the runner. FED does not recognize "train wrecks".
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#20 noumpere

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 05:56 PM


just the contact by the errant thow is not enough.


Indeed it is if it impedes the runner. FED does not recognize "train wrecks".


Yes, they do but just in less situations than in other codes.




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