Pickoff to Base Occupied by a runner but not a fielder...

[Spoonerstreet]

Odd situation happened in a tournament yesterday. For the record, I was not umpiring but coaching.

R3, defense is on the ready for a squeeze but the batter hasn't squared.

Pitcher kicks, using a good move to try to pick off R3.

3B turns his attention to the batter and starts to charge, unaware that the pickoff move has been made. Pitcher still throws the ball, and it hits 3B in the glove, but he had no idea the ball was coming.

3B was about 8 feet off the bag, in-between the mound and the base. Ball hits him, bounces harmlessly in front of him.

BU calls this a balk, saying that he had to be able to make a play. Not 100% that I agree with him, but wanted to see what the consensus is with my trusted fellows here on the forum. I think everyone on the field was confused, very odd situation. I don't think I would have called it a balk, but that would have been from a "benefit of the doubt" judgement instead of a rules-based judgement.

What do you guys think?

[Dragon29]

This is a HTBT call. Would have to see where R3 & F5 are and judge the timing of the throw but based solely on your description, if F5 is close enough to have attempted a play on R3, I'm probably leaving it alone.

[UmpJM]

Spoonerstreet (& Dragon),

My thought is that the BU needs to learn the balk rules.

As described this is absolutely NOT a balk.

The only requirement that a pick-off throw be directly TO a base, OR a fielder close enough to the runner that he is able to make a legitimate attempt at a play, is on a pick-off throw to 1B when the F1 is throwing from the rubber.

JM

[Spoonerstreet]

If, by some miracle, F5 caught the ball, he would have had to take 3-4 steps to get to the runner or the bag. There was no way he could have made a play on the runner, as he had a "normal" lead. If the runner had broke for home, he might have had him in a rundown. This might be the ultimate HTBT play. :notworthy:

[UmpJM]

If, by some miracle, F5 caught the ball, he would have had to take 3-4 steps to get to the runner or the bag. There was no way he could have made a play on the runner, as he had a "normal" lead. If the runner had broke for home, he might have had him in a rundown. This might be the ultimate HTBT play.

spooner,

As described, there is NOTHING "HTBT" about whether or not this a balk - it's not.

Whether the F5 was close enough to attempt a play is COMPLETELY irrelevant in this sitch.

JM

[Spoonerstreet]

Thanks for the clarification, JM. I think what got to me the most was that this guy had missed no less than 4 "no pause on set" from the stretch position (13U AA, no reason to let this go). But he was ALL OVER this one!

[mstaylor]

John is right, absolutely no balk.

[buddywilshire]

spooner,

As described, there is NOTHING "HTBT" about whether or not this a balk - it's not.

Whether the F5 was close enough to attempt a play is COMPLETELY irrelevant in this sitch.

JM

Right. I actually was confued about why this would be one. No HTBT, just a bad call

[th3]

I had a play today (i was PU) where there was a runner on 2nd and the pitcher spun to throw and the ss had not yet broken to the base...he started to go as he saw the pitcher turn and the pitcher threw to the ss, who was far from the base but moving towards it...we didnt call anything...was that correct?

[noumpere]

we didnt call anything...was that correct?

Yes.

At second and third, the throw only needs to be more toward that base than to another.

Both the OP and your situation meet that requirement. Legal, if ugly, plays.

[JaxRolo]

I had a play today (i was PU) where there was a runner on 2nd and the pitcher spun to throw and the ss had not yet broken to the base...he started to go as he saw the pitcher turn and the pitcher threw to the ss, who was far from the base but moving towards it...we didnt call anything...was that correct?

Yesterday I was BU and we had the same exact play. Didn't call nothing but thought about it for a second!

[tjshanno]

American Legion game. R2, pitcher wheels and throws to F4 who is 15 ft from second base. PU waits till ball returned to pitcher, decides he has a balk. As coach I ask for his reason, he states F4 has to be at the bag. My argument is that the pitcher doesn't even have to throw, or can throw it to F8 if he chooses. The only place the fielder has to be at the bag is first base, and only if F1 throws from the rubber. We disagree, I protest the award of 3B, game continues. Review by AL board, protest upheld, no balk. In OP no way this is a balk.

[buddywilshire]

I had a play today (i was PU) where there was a runner on 2nd and the pitcher spun to throw and the ss had not yet broken to the base...he started to go as he saw the pitcher turn and the pitcher threw to the ss, who was far from the base but moving towards it...we didnt call anything...was that correct?

That is actually a play. They were talking about it yesterday in the Card/Rockies game. I think Ricky Horton said it was called "Flashing the glove" Basically the SS or 2B flash and open glove and the pitcher throws them the ball. What you had here was a poor attempt at it, sorta. No issue.

[th3]

this wasnt a play..believe me...i dont think the SS knew pickoffs were allowed

[rulebook]

That is actually a play. They were talking about it yesterday in the Card/Rockies game. I think Ricky Horton said it was called "Flashing the glove" Basically the SS or 2B flash and open glove and the pitcher throws them the ball. What you had here was a poor attempt at it, sorta. No issue.

Yes, "flashing the glove" means that the middle infielder initiates a pickoff attempt by signaling the pitcher with a flick of his glove or hand toward second base. The fielder breaks to the bag immediately after the signal, so this play was probably not on in the OP situation. More likely, the middle infielder missed a signal putting a play on or the pitcher was just confused.

[buddywilshire]

Yes, "flashing the glove" means that the middle infielder initiates a pickoff attempt by signaling the pitcher with a flick of his glove or hand toward second base. The fielder breaks to the bag immediately after the signal, so this play was probably not on in the OP situation. More likely, the middle infielder missed a signal putting a play on or the pitcher was just confused.

I know I was just saying. That is why I said poor attempt. I was more just saying it could happen.

[Don]

Spoonerstreet (& Dragon),

My thought is that the BU needs to learn the balk rules.

As described this is absolutely NOT a balk.

The only requirement that a pick-off throw be directly TO a base, OR a fielder close enough to the runner that he is able to make a legitimate attempt at a play, is on a pick-off throw to 1B when the F1 is throwing from the rubber.

JM

Ditto

[loopdude]

This is a rare occasion where I would like to pick up an old topic again:

With the new ruling in regards to pickoffs to third, is this a balk now?

[noumpere]

This is a rare occasion where I would like to pick up an old topic again:

With the new ruling in regards to pickoffs to third, is this a balk now?

If the throw was to the base, then no balk.  If the throw was not to the base, then balk (since it doesn't appear there was a play on)

[grayhawk]

 

This is a rare occasion where I would like to pick up an old topic again:

With the new ruling in regards to pickoffs to third, is this a balk now?

If the throw was to the base, then no balk.  If the throw was not to the base, then balk (since it doesn't appear there was a play on)

 

 

Agreed for OBR.  Still legal in Fed.  NCAA?

[noumpere]

It's still legal to feint to third in NCAA.

[jjskitours]

I understand the feint to 3rd is no longer legal under OBR, but what is the rule reference to support OP being a balk. The 2013 edition of MLBUM states this is not a violation at second or third, only first and it does include the change regarding no longer being legal to feint to third base.

[afaber12]

I don't think you'll find a rule reference to support it, the consensus was that the OP was not a balk. The ball was thrown to the base, and presumably the pitcher met the other requirements of stepping to third base before throwing, doing it in one motion, and not making a move that committed him to pitch. There's no requirement that the ball reaches the base, only that the throw is to the base.

[jjskitours]

 

 

This is a rare occasion where I would like to pick up an old topic again:

With the new ruling in regards to pickoffs to third, is this a balk now?

If the throw was to the base, then no balk.  If the throw was not to the base, then balk (since it doesn't appear there was a play on)

 

 

Agreed for OBR.  Still legal in Fed.  NCAA?

 

My question is when throw is not toward 3rd base and F5 has no play on R3. For sure this was not a violation / balk prior to 2013, but it seems grayhawk and noumpere say under the recent change it is a balk. If a balk, where is the support. As I noted above,  MLBUM (2013 edition) does not seem to support calling this a balk, just makes it illegal to feint to third.

[Replacematt]

This IS a feint to third.