24 replies to this topic

[umped up]

What are you guys looking at when a batter takes a check swing if your are the BU? Sitting in the A slot, are you looking at the bat head, hands (wrist) or the hips? What are you looking for?

What would you say about your partner checking you with a RHB and your in the B slot? Or worse yet the C slot. Same as with a LHB? Personally, I never go to him if he's not in the A or D where he can see straight down the line. This is something that before the game, I talk about. If a coach ask me to appeal, I will but the FU will call a no swing. I've seen where an umpire ask for help and it's granted and the FU calles "yes he went" and you can hear all the bellows of, "how in the hell can you see that from that angle". I happen to agree with that. Of course that's being called from either the B or C. Speaking of the coach asking for the appeal, is this something that should always be granted? At this point, I do it solely for courtesy. There are times when the catcher asked and I'll just tell him he didn't go and leave it at that.

Correct me if I'm wrong here (like I need to worry about that one) but didn't they change that this year in the 3 man mechanic in college? With a lefty up, they want the appeal to be taken at 3rd and the opposite when a righty batter. Is this because they now want you looking at the hip for rotation and thinks a better view is seen from these positions?

[Welpe]

Since I don't work NCAA, I simply use my judgment if he offered at the pitch or not.

[noumpere]

What would you say about your partner checking you with a RHB and your in the B slot? Or worse yet the C slot. Same as with a LHB? Personally, I never go to him if he's not in the A or D where he can see straight down the line. This is something that before the game, I talk about. If a coach ask me to appeal, I will but the FU will call a no swing.

Get over it and go to your partner and he should give you what he has. What your saying is old school and has been discredited for a number of years now.

Correct me if I'm wrong here (like I need to worry about that one) but didn't they change that this year in the 3 man mechanic in college? With a lefty up, they want the appeal to be taken at 3rd and the opposite when a righty batter. Is this because they now want you looking at the hip for rotation and thinks a better view is seen from these positions?

They changed it but its not looking at the hip for rotation its looking at the barrel of the bat in front of the hip and the rule didnt change just the mechanic.

[cyclonehokiece]

Never do the "if I go to you, just say no if you are in B or C." If I am in the field, I will give you what I have no matter what position. I hope my partner does the same when I go to him. If the catcher or coach asks, out of courtesy, I will go to my partner. Why not ask, you may get another strike (which is what we want, right?)

[umped up]

Since I don't work NCAA, I simply use my judgment if he offered at the pitch or not.

I've heard this theory before but I think that leaves a lot of gray area. Every swing starts with a movement. First your weight goes back and then starts forward. A hitter starts to offer at every pitch then stops. Sometimes (a lot of times) the hands will be going forward then stopping. Would you call this an offer? When a hitter is fooled, he will "start" to offer then realize the pitch is going to miss the strike zone and stop. I know as a hitter, I'm always starting to offer until I know it's a ball, then I stop. I'm just not too sure I like the verbage, that's all. You can take every check swing and say, '" well, he offered", of course he did but he stopped. Did he stop in time? That's the question. What is the point we look at to where we can say, " yes, he stopped in time"?

[hckyosgood30]

Don't have an ego, go to your partner and let him give you what he's got doesn't matter where he is on the field. If they ask at all in NCAA GO! They've earned that right. As for the "half swing" in NCAA not check swing anymore. It states that if the Barrel Head of the bat crosses the players front hip. To answer your other question in the 3-man system in college now they want who ever is on the wing to get the half swing. It only matters LHB/RHB if both umpires are on the wings. Then you'd go to the corresponding umpire. IE... RHB = U1 LHB = U3 assuming their on the lines.

"Rule 2-18, Check Swing (Change to Half Swing): At the beginning of the definition, add: An attempt by the batter to stop his forward motion of the bat on the swing and putting himself in jeopardy The ‘half swing’ might put the batter in jeopardy of a strike being called. The half swing shall be called a strike if the barrel head of the bat passes [delete--the front edge of home plate or] the batter’s front hip.

Rationale: This is more in line with other rules codes and is a more accurate depiction of what umpires use to determine this call.

[umped up]

Never do the "if I go to you, just say no if you are in B or C." If I am in the field, I will give you what I have no matter what position. I hope my partner does the same when I go to him. If the catcher or coach asks, out of courtesy, I will go to my partner. Why not ask, you may get another strike (which is what we want, right?)

I hear ya. I've been told by others that it shows up the PU. I'm not sold on that train of thought. If the PU vocalizes "no, he did not go" and the coach says "appeal" and you do and your partner siganls "strike", I'd feel like. It's kinda like telling everyone that I cant see whats right in front of me. It's tougher than one might think to track the pitch and also see if the bat went through the zone or not. I feel that I would lose some credibility at that point. And yes, it's all about getting the call right but aren't there exceptions?

[Welpe]

Did he stop in time?

Stop in time for what? A batter can offer, not start to offer but actually offer, at a pitch without breaking any specific line or barrier with the bat. That's where our judgment comes in. FED says we can use the barrel of the bat in relation to the body as an aid but it's not the sole guideline. If in our judgment he offered at a pitch, that is good enough.

Also, under OBR, you have to by rule ask your partner if requested.

[umped up]

Don't have an ego, go to your partner and let him give you what he's got doesn't matter where he is on the field. If they ask at all in NCAA GO! They've earned that right. As for the "half swing" in NCAA not check swing anymore. It states that if the Barrel Head of the bat crosses the players front hip. To answer your other question in the 3-man system in college now they want who ever is on the wing to get the half swing. It only matters LHB/RHB if both umpires are on the wings. Then you'd go to the corresponding umpire. IE... RHB = U1 LHB = U3 assuming their on the lines.

"Rule 2-18, Check Swing (Change to Half Swing): At the beginning of the definition, add: An attempt by the batter to stop his forward motion of the bat on the swing and putting himself in jeopardy The ‘half swing’ might put the batter in jeopardy of a strike being called. The half swing shall be called a strike if the barrel head of the bat passes [delete--the front edge of home plate or] the batter’s front hip.

Rationale: This is more in line with other rules codes and is a more accurate depiction of what umpires use to determine this call.

Now that, I can work with. But now my question is, how can you see this from the B or C slot? You cant. It has to be pretty obvious if they can see it from there and then, Im sure the PU would see that one. Thanks for the explanation.

[umped up]

So then, would the appropriate thing to say as your being appealed to is, "yes he went or yes he offered"?

[Welpe]

So then, would the appropriate thing to say as your being appealed to is, "yes he went or yes he offered"?

Or "yes he did" but only if you think he did.

[grayhawk]

Never do the "if I go to you, just say no if you are in B or C." If I am in the field, I will give you what I have no matter what position. I hope my partner does the same when I go to him. If the catcher or coach asks, out of courtesy, I will go to my partner. Why not ask, you may get another strike (which is what we want, right?)

I hear ya. I've been told by others that it shows up the PU. I'm not sold on that train of thought. If the PU vocalizes "no, he did not go" and the coach says "appeal" and you do and your partner siganls "strike", I'd feel like. It's kinda like telling everyone that I cant see whats right in front of me. It's tougher than one might think to track the pitch and also see if the bat went through the zone or not. I feel that I would lose some credibility at that point. And yes, it's all about getting the call right but aren't there exceptions?

Easy fix - don't use that mechanic in anything other than 1 man. If you have a partner, give yourself a chance to get a strike even if you didn't think he offered.

[umped up]

Never do the "if I go to you, just say no if you are in B or C." If I am in the field, I will give you what I have no matter what position. I hope my partner does the same when I go to him. If the catcher or coach asks, out of courtesy, I will go to my partner. Why not ask, you may get another strike (which is what we want, right?)

I hear ya. I've been told by others that it shows up the PU. I'm not sold on that train of thought. If the PU vocalizes "no, he did not go" and the coach says "appeal" and you do and your partner siganls "strike", I'd feel like. It's kinda like telling everyone that I cant see whats right in front of me. It's tougher than one might think to track the pitch and also see if the bat went through the zone or not. I feel that I would lose some credibility at that point. And yes, it's all about getting the call right but aren't there exceptions?

Easy fix - don't use that mechanic in anything other than 1 man. If you have a partner, give yourself a chance to get a strike even if you didn't think he offered.

Great point!

[Matt]

If the PU vocalizes "no, he did not go" and the coach says "appeal" and you do and your partner siganls "strike", I'd feel like. It's kinda like telling everyone that I cant see whats right in front of me. It's tougher than one might think to track the pitch and also see if the bat went through the zone or not. I feel that I would lose some credibility at that point.

If there wasn't an issue with check/half-swings, this appeal process wouldn't be codified. It's there for a reason, and that reason is that there are multiple things that PU is tracking.

[mstaylor]

There is absolutely no problem with going to your partner in the middle, B or C. NCAA isn't judging the attempt, they are judging how far into the swing he is going. Because of this the wing guy will have a better look at the hip. If you are in the middle and the PU comes to you, give him what you have. If you aren't sure, safe it, if you are sure, bang it. Either way is no big deal. As the PU, if you are sure you had a good look at the check, that's when you use the,"Yes he did" or "No he didn't." Rarely will the coach ask if you properly use this mechanic. If you use it improperly then he will ask and it's a good chance the BU will reverse you. What I always think is funny when they complain that the umpire can't see in the middle, half the time it is the pitcher that wanted the appeal. So the pitcher can see it but the umpire can't.

[Kevin Finnerty]

If you think about it, it's easier to see the barrel appear from behind the batter as it passes his front hip than it is to see it from B or C position.

[umped up]

If you think about it, it's easier to see the barrel appear from behind the batter as it passes his front hip than it is to see it from B or C position.

That'swhat I said. Maybe it takes someone as respected as you to ring the bell.

[Welpe]

If you think about it, it's easier to see the barrel appear from behind the batter as it passes his front hip than it is to see it from B or C position.

Which is why the NCAA mechanic makes sense. When you've got one other umpire, grant the appeal anyways and let the BU take his best shot at it.

[noumpere]

Don't have an ego, go to your partner and let him give you what he's got doesn't matter where he is on the field. If they ask at all in NCAA GO! They've earned that right. As for the "half swing" in NCAA not check swing anymore. It states that if the Barrel Head of the bat crosses the players front hip. To answer your other question in the 3-man system in college now they want who ever is on the wing to get the half swing. It only matters LHB/RHB if both umpires are on the wings. Then you'd go to the corresponding umpire. IE... RHB = U1 LHB = U3 assuming their on the lines.

"Rule 2-18, Check Swing (Change to Half Swing): At the beginning of the definition, add: An attempt by the batter to stop his forward motion of the bat on the swing and putting himself in jeopardy The ‘half swing’ might put the batter in jeopardy of a strike being called. The half swing shall be called a strike if the barrel head of the bat passes [delete--the front edge of home plate or] the batter’s front hip.

Rationale: This is more in line with other rules codes and is a more accurate depiction of what umpires use to determine this call.

Now that, I can work with. But now my question is, how can you see this from the B or C slot? You cant. It has to be pretty obvious if they can see it from there and then, Im sure the PU would see that one. Thanks for the explanation.

You played baseball and Im sure you had an opinion on every check swing whether you were at first second left field or the dugout. Its the same for the umpire except now you get paid to make that decision and yours is the only vote that counts.

Im glad to have you as an umpire but you need to drop your player thoughts to be a good umpire (and Im sure theres a better way of putting that)

[mstaylor]

Simply remember no matter what position you are in, if you are sure he offered, bang it, if you aren't sure, safe it. Don't over complicate the operation.